A few thoughts on your GS5 mod

[rigel]

Well, I downloaded your mod and I beat the game twice with it. There are some definite things I liked about it. For starters, I really really liked the increased limits for assigning followers. I remember being rather annoyed by this in the long-term when I played this game awhile ago, but you've set it up to allow more versatility, and let the game flow for a long time potentially without annoyance. It also means that you can defend more places. Very very nice

I especially enjoyed you making it so lesser creatures like Skeletons could also level up. I was also pleasantly suprised when I found an Orc Warlord as the Chaos Leader on one occassion. I am curious. You've said that you can go beyond the level ticks for creatures, correct? Does the leveling up happen automatically or do you have to input what numbers go up every time a creature levels up?

One thing that's been bugging me a lot is these artifacts. They keep on disappearing! Why is this happening? Sometimes moving them makes them dissappear. Sometimes just going through a battle and gaining an artifact makes me lose it.

Another thing that I've been noticing. Warriors are still king in this game and now even more so. It's really easy to just go solo warrior and own everything now. Not that that isn't fun, but it's interesting for me to think that to challenge myself I have to be a Theif.

One more question. Is the AI for this game hardcoded? Or is it actually possible to make the computer smarter?

[Boaster]

rigel said:

Well, I downloaded your mod and I beat the game twice with it. There are some definite things I liked about it. For starters, I really really liked the increased limits for assigning followers. I remember being rather annoyed by this in the long-term when I played this game awhile ago, but you've set it up to allow more versatility, and let the game flow for a long time potentially without annoyance. It also means that you can defend more places. Very very nice

Ofcourse, praise me to butter me up, heheh.

I especially enjoyed you making it so lesser creatures like Skeletons could also level up. I was also pleasantly suprised when I found an Orc Warlord as the Chaos Leader on one occassion. I am curious. You've said that you can go beyond the level ticks for creatures, correct? Does the leveling up happen automatically or do you have to input what numbers go up every time a creature levels up?

"Go beyond level ticks..." What are you trying to say? I'm not understanding.

One thing that's been bugging me a lot is these artifacts. They keep on disappearing! Why is this happening? Sometimes moving them makes them dissappear. Sometimes just going through a battle and gaining an artifact makes me lose it.

Artifacts disappearing? Are you destroying them with the purple X above the portrait?

Another thing that I've been noticing. Warriors are still king in this game and now even more so. It's really easy to just go solo warrior and own everything now. Not that that isn't fun, but it's interesting for me to think that to challenge myself I have to be a Theif.

I hate to tell you, but Warriors are not the king of the game. Sure, Warriors are the kings of brute combat strength and recieve artifacts to bolster their power. Don't get near high level warriors.

Thieves are supposed to be stealthy and crafty. A Thief can easily take our a Warrior with ranged abilities. Warriors have much trouble versus thieves, but Warriors can defeat them. Thieves are generally wizard slayers and prey on the weak.

Mages, with the appropriate spells and mana can kill more warriors in one turn than any Warrior or Thief combined with the least time used. The Energy Stone is probably the most valuable secondary mage artifact, because it restores mana after combat. Mages have serious power.

One more question. Is the AI for this game hardcoded? Or is it actually possible to make the computer smarter?

It's not hard coded, but it is extremely difficult to alter. It's very complicated.

[rigel]

Ofcourse, praise me to butter me up, heheh.

If you like something that someone has done you should certainly give credit where it's due. I entirely meant what I said.

What are you trying to say? I'm not understanding.

I guess I need to rephrase this. Can you make any creature in the game gain levels? You can make creatures gain levels beyond 15th correct? When you make a creature gain levels, do you have to input what they gain each level, or can you make it so that their stats would update automatically without you having to input each individual level for however many levels you would want to allow?

Artifacts disappearing? Are you destroying them with the purple X above the portrait?

Ah darn, I thought that it was just another close window button That's probably a part of the problem. I think that the items have been disappearing for other reasons, but I'll do some more testing.

I hate to tell you, but Warriors are not the king of the game. Sure, Warriors are the kings of brute combat strength and recieve artifacts to bolster their power. Don't get near high level warriors.

Thieves are supposed to be stealthy and crafty. A Thief can easily take our a Warrior with ranged abilities. Warriors have much trouble versus thieves, but Warriors can defeat them. Thieves are generally wizard slayers and prey on the weak.

Mages, with the appropriate spells and mana can kill more warriors in one turn than any Warrior or Thief combined with the least time used. The Energy Stone is probably the most valuable secondary mage artifact, because it restores mana after combat. Mages have serious power.

I don't doubt that Thieves and mages have some niceities. However, as far as completing the game speedily, Warriors take the cup here. Solo several 1-3 places and eventually 4s and 5s when you're ready, and you're powerful enough to take on the entire game. You're also ready to train your barracks and create several contingent units to defend your city or take over the world if you wish.

I am aware of some of the potential use (and cheapness) of the mage spells, but it takes a lot of time to learn those spells. It is true that Thieves are good at Sneaking, but what good is sneaking when the person you're attacking has 25 Armor or 30 armor? Also, perhaps you're more used to fighting people online. I have not had much of that privilege. The few games that I played in didn't work because we had different game versions, or the other person left too soon before the game was of much use.

I'm also aware that you can sneak shoot, sneak shoot, but a warrior can avoid all of that trouble and just own the enemies directly.

It's not hard coded, but it is extremely difficult to alter. It's very complicated.

Ah, has your mod changed the AI some? my memories are faint, and I cannot completely tell.

[Boaster]

I guess I need to rephrase this. Can you make any creature in the game gain levels? You can make creatures gain levels beyond 15th correct? When you make a creature gain levels, do you have to input what they gain each level, or can you make it so that their stats would update automatically without you having to input each individual level for however many levels you would want to allow?

Units can be designed to go passed Level 15, but the tick marks in the unit window will stop at 15. So I figured, 15 is enough. Also, for each level you would have to designate stat points. For creatures that start above Level 1 and gain levels, experience is setup in a clever way. Experience required for the first few levels would be set to -1; experience required to go to the next level is zero points. All units start with zero experience, so this makes them start at a higher level. But for creatures that don't gain levels, they use a slightly different coding in their respective unit coding.

Ah darn, I thought that it was just another close window button That's probably a part of the problem. I think that the items have been disappearing for other reasons, but I'll do some more testing.

Yes. Little tooltips pop up over each icon in the artifact window. The purple X will display "Destroy Artifact" and the little diagonal arrow will display "Close Panel" or something of that nature. I just recently added the "Destry Artifact" button so players can get rid of artifacts they find useless or want to destroy before another army kills their party, or something.

I don't doubt that Thieves and mages have some niceities. However, as far as completing the game speedily, Warriors take the cup here. Solo several 1-3 places and eventually 4s and 5s when you're ready, and you're powerful enough to take on the entire game. You're also ready to train your barracks and create several contingent units to defend your city or take over the world if you wish.

Thieves have a natural ability to do a "Critical Strike." It was like this with the original, unmodified, LOMSE but it had no definite term. I just call it Critical Strike. Critical Strike for Thieves works in melee and ranged combat. In melee, their attack value is doubled for the attack. In range, their ranged attack value is doubled for the attack. The chances of Critical Strikes improves when targets are not directly facing the attacking Thief. Also, the Luck Stat from an Artifact or spell will improve chances.

Options to improve Critical Strikes for Thieves:
- Dexterity / 10 = Base percentage, includes zero.
- Luck.
- 1 in 40 chance to add 2X Attack or Ranged Attack value to the equation. If the target is not facing the direction of the attacking thief, a "table facing" bonus is added which will increase the chance of rolling a bonus chance to do critical strike.
- Desperation, if the unit has 10% life remaining then add a value equal to the unit's level as a bonus.

A Level 15 Murderer has 27 Ranged Attack and 23 Dexterity.
- 23 / 10 = 2.3, round down to 2.0.
- Add 1, because zero is included in range.
- The unit has no luck.
- Value stands at 3.0, or 3% base chance.
- The unit has full life, so no desperation bonus is applied.

If the 1 in 40 bonus rolls successfully, 27 * 2, 54% bonus is added.

57% chance to do Critical Strike, which doubles attack values.

Critical Strike would give the Murderer the effective ranged attack value of 54. This is without artifacts. Consider the effect is the attack was aimed. 27 * 1.5 = 40.5, then double for Critical Strike and it is 81 ranged attack.

A luck stone for this thief would add 7 luck, at level 15. In addition the luck stone adds other stats.

I am aware of some of the potential use (and cheapness) of the mage spells, but it takes a lot of time to learn those spells. It is true that Thieves are good at Sneaking, but what good is sneaking when the person you're attacking has 25 Armor or 30 armor? Also, perhaps you're more used to fighting people online. I have not had much of that privilege. The few games that I played in didn't work because we had different game versions, or the other person left too soon before the game was of much use.

I've tried to remove some of the most directly cheap spells and spell combos such as Freeze and Cloud of Steam which in the original game allowed a Priestess Lord to conquer dungeons alone and get powerful early. Also, Mages have spells that can make them as powerful or nearly as powerful as Warriors. Though this is generally only at Level 10 or higher for the Mages.

Other directly cheap tactics were the overland attack spells. Just bombard the army until they're down to 1 HP. Yeah... that's not cheap or anything /sarcasm.

I'm also aware that you can sneak shoot, sneak shoot, but a warrior can avoid all of that trouble and just own the enemies directly.

Don't forget that thieves have a multi-shot ability with their Legendary Artifacts. Sneak and shoot may take time, but it's a good way to get a weak thief up in levels.

Ah, has your mod changed the AI some? my memories are faint, and I cannot completely tell.

My mod allows the AI more options because they start with more money and their buildings start with random amounts of experience which are generally higher than the normal game's building experiences.

If you want to play a tough game, download the map from my website called "Penara.scn" and play that. It's an official GS5 Map and it will provide a challenge, some fun, and a lengthly game. Try beating a Level 11 Dungeon with just a solo Warrior ;D


Penara, Temora and Roggow II are official GS5 maps.

Play on Hard Mode for the most challenging experience.

[rigel]

I can kinda see the usefulness for a destroy artifact button. I guess the button is just in a strange place. But once known, it's fine.

Thieves have a natural ability to do a "Critical Strike." It was like this with the original, unmodified, LOMSE but it had no definite term. I just call it Critical Strike. Critical Strike for Thieves works in melee and ranged combat. In melee, their attack value is doubled for the attack. In range, their ranged attack value is doubled for the attack. The chances of Critical Strikes improves when targets are not directly facing the attacking Thief. Also, the Luck Stat from an Artifact or spell will improve chances.

Options to improve Critical Strikes for Thieves:
- Dexterity / 10 = Base percentage, includes zero.
- Luck.
- 1 in 40 chance to add 2X Attack or Ranged Attack value to the equation. If the target is not facing the direction of the attacking thief, a "table facing" bonus is added which will increase the chance of rolling a bonus chance to do critical strike.
- Desperation, if the unit has 10% life remaining then add a value equal to the unit's level as a bonus.

A Level 15 Murderer has 27 Ranged Attack and 23 Dexterity.
- 23 / 10 = 2.3, round down to 2.0.
- Add 1, because zero is included in range.
- The unit has no luck.
- Value stands at 3.0, or 3% base chance.
- The unit has full life, so no desperation bonus is applied.

If the 1 in 40 bonus rolls successfully, 27 * 2, 54% bonus is added.

57% chance to do Critical Strike, which doubles attack values.

Critical Strike would give the Murderer the effective ranged attack value of 54. This is without artifacts. Consider the effect is the attack was aimed. 27 * 1.5 = 40.5, then double for Critical Strike and it is 81 ranged attack.

A luck stone for this thief would add 7 luck, at level 15. In addition the luck stone adds other stats.

Ah, I never knew about that. I would guess that you have upped the usefulness of Critical Strike in your mod? How does it compare to the original?

I've tried to remove some of the most directly cheap spells and spell combos such as Freeze and Cloud of Steam which in the original game allowed a Priestess Lord to conquer dungeons alone and get powerful early. Also, Mages have spells that can make them as powerful or nearly as powerful as Warriors. Though this is generally only at Level 10 or higher for the Mages.

Other directly cheap tactics were the overland attack spells. Just bombard the army until they're down to 1 HP. Yeah... that's not cheap or anything /sarcasm.

Hehe. There's also Sands of Sleep and Slow which pretty much destroys your opponent.

My mod allows the AI more options because they start with more money and their buildings start with random amounts of experience which are generally higher than the normal game's building experiences.

If you want to play a tough game, download the map from my website called "Penara.scn" and play that. It's an official GS5 Map and it will provide a challenge, some fun, and a lengthly game. Try beating a Level 11 Dungeon with just a solo Warrior ;D


Penara, Temora and Roggow II are official GS5 maps.

Play on Hard Mode for the most challenging experience.

Well, I just played through Penara as Order. I must tell you that the Crusader's sword is extremely powerful. I beat Fafnir and the Pheonix with just a few hits since I have a percent chance of automatically killing something. So I was hoping for an epic battle between the dragon and the knight, but in a couple of hits, the dragon was dead. The only level 11 place I couldn't beat was the Earth one. In that case the earth mage put sands of sleep on me, meanwhile the 40 strength Legendary Earth Worm attacked Lancelot (or the Bronze Knight as you've renamed him). I only had 33 Defense, so I got owned. All the rest though, I beat with a single warrior. Note that this wouldn't be possible in the old Lords of magic since attack and defense never went that high.

I am finding why again the AI dissatisfies me. They have to put a creature in every structure they own. Even if it's a little tiny scout, they put one in there. Also, they spend all their energy sending out these 1 unit scouts when they're capable of making armies and conquering other nations. If they lose their Great Temple Guards, they never replace them or effectively replace them. Also, they let random people steal their enhancements and they never do anything about them. Often they can go 12 turns without retaking their Great Temple. Death sent 4 armies after me. Why couldn't they send 4 armies to overcome their neighbors that are closer and keep them controlled? In my game, Air lost his capital, his temple and everything else but his Legendary Creature. When that happend he just stood in the same place for the rest of the game never doing anything. Although I was rather pleased and surprised during the game when Life (by happenstance no doubt) killed Chaos and then later Death on turn 272. So I won the game by just waiting.

[Boaster]

Sounds like you have a problem with the game, not the mod. I cannot help that. No one can.

If you don't like the AI, play someone on Kali.net. You won't smack a Human player around like the AI. And when the AI attacks armies in their region, they do so sending mercenaries. The AI will need a certain amount of resources before the AI will consider using them.



The old Critical Strike was a 1 in 40 chance, with a bonus from the facing table. The new Critical Strike adds the old Critical Strike equation into the new Critical Strike equation. Also, only Champion Thieves were able to do the old Critical Strike, because it was based on the Unit's Code (THF). So even if you successfully roll the old Critical Strike, it's not garuanteed that you'll do the new Critical Strike equation.

I'll be making some modifications soon to the mod, so expect an update.

[Boaster]

One question about your game you played... Did you use the Lord Editor?

[rigel]

Well, I've been reading some of the documents from one of the LOmSE links you have that talks about the map editor and the AI. Apparently, how a map is made greatly affects the AI. If the AI conquers a region too quickly, they'll go back and forth between the two nations until they lose one or both of them. Why? Because they're programmed to start training rather than clear areas. So, if a nation is allowed progress far enough, it can later on conquer places, keep them, and not be a total idiot.

I've been playing this map called FireStar recently, and it's very very good. Death actually has some devastating armies in the long term. So now I'm playing it again with the knowledge of a hard game. When I've beaten it, I'll try doing it with your mod, and I'll compare.

Yes, I did use the Lord Editor in the game I was speaking of. I didn't think it would matter much truthfully, what it helped me with was speed. I got the Crusader's Sword and that one Shield again. One thing I did notice is that you made the Crusader better than the Bronze Knight, but the Bronze Knight takes a heck of a lot more experience to get to 15th.

[Boaster]

The Bronze Knight takes more experience to achieve Level 15 because this Legendary unit is a Champion and it's like having another Lords.

Do not start the game with the Lord Editor. I find the game extrmeley easy when I start with the artifacts I want as well. I would suggest starting the game on Hard without using the Lord Editor. Play on Penara again, without the Lord Editor. Tell me how many turns it will take to clear your Temple.

Right now with my mod, I'm working on creating ways to allow artifacts to control if a unit does the Attack Skills (Deadly Strike, Critical Strike, etc.).

[rigel]

admin said:

The Bronze Knight takes more experience to achieve Level 15 because this Legendary unit is a Champion and it's like having another Lords.

Do not start the game with the Lord Editor. I find the game extrmeley easy when I start with the artifacts I want as well. I would suggest starting the game on Hard without using the Lord Editor. Play on Penara again, without the Lord Editor. Tell me how many turns it will take to clear your Temple.

Right now with my mod, I'm working on creating ways to allow artifacts to control if a unit does the Attack Skills (Deadly Strike, Critical Strike, etc.).

Well, try playing an Order Warlord together with Lancelot and you'll see that there's a large discrepancy. I can understand one taking more xp than the other, but this is a big difference.

I played Penara again without the Lord Editor and on Hard mode. True to my feelings, there wasn't that large of a difference for Solo Warrior mode. I played an Earth Warrior, and I immediately sent my other two units out for scouting. In the first (level 1 mission) I gained two levels and by the end of the first turn I was 6th level and already had 25 attack and 20 defense. I tried to get the great temple before turn 7, but it eluded me. The Death mage took my health down very low while the Assassin kept throwin daggers at me. If I had decided to bring a theif with me to distract the assassin, I actually could probably have gotten the Great Temple at turn 6. But that didn't work so I had to go train a little more first. By the end of turn 6, I was level 10. But, when I went to the Great temple on turn 7, the Necromancer wasn't present, instead it was 2 warriors and a thief, and so I immediately went after the theif, killed him, and then proceeded to destroy everyone else one at a time, and thus the great temple was mine.

Also, I played the map Firestar (a fun map for sure) on the regular Lords of magic way, and with your mod. To be sure, it was easier with your mod. On the other hand, I was able to do it decently as the Fire Nation (something which would have been near impossible with Lords of magic as it was originally), so it's give and take.

I am contemplating how the game would be if there weren't mercenaries. That's probably the #1 way I'm used to killing Lords, take over their poorly guarded Capital, and then proceed to immediatly hire mercenaries to kill everyone in the vicinity.

Is there a way to designate in the game screen whether a unit is a mercenary or not (other than higher costs because at 1st level you can't really tell)? It would probably help a little bit. Hmm, would it be possible to later change mercenaries into regular units?

[Boaster]

I might do something similar to what another modder previously did and that is make the effective conferred experience from buildings only count for half, or a third.

Another thing I've considered is the same as above, but by effected by the building level. Mercenary Exp / Building Level. Because at higher level buildings conferred experience increases quite a bit. With this implemented, Mercs would recieve the same exp regardless of the building level. 10 / 1 = 10, 20 / 2 = 10, 30 / 3 = 10. 10% experience conferred at all levels.

Mercenaries are already disabled completely from Multiplayer.

How to distinguish between Mercenaries and Trained units? The high upkeep. Mercenaries upkeep is relative to their level. If you somehow had a Mercenary Lancelot, that would be 5 x Level Ale upkeep. For level 10, that's 50 Ale.

I've also considered somhow getting a little letter placed in the unit information panels. An M would show up for Mercenary, a V for volunteer, T for a Trained unit, D for the no_defend_anim flag, etc. It won't be easy though.

Earth Warriors are the kings of melee combat. Slow, powerful, and deadly. With 50% melee resistance and -25% missile, they're one of few units in the game with a negative physical resistance. Thieves have a bonus to hurt these guys.


So you're going through the game easy enough to not even die once, by mistake?

As far as Warrior Lords being powerful units, I've meant for them to be this way. What's the point of having a fighter if he cannot at least defend himself? Warlords are powerful, but but an army of considerable strength will always be able to outmatch him. Even a wizard, with a small army, can annihilate any lone Warrior.

You main problem is you're not facing a good enough challenge, which is why I suggest playing another Human player on Kali.net. I'm available for play.