|
|
Post by plebeian on Aug 22, 2018 5:51:27 GMT -6
Hello again,
I don´t really have anything major to ask this time, but I was wondering: has anyone else noted that the AI values it´s Mage champions really, reeeally, REEEALLY highly? In fact, the Mages are so expensive during trades, even when a faith is devoted to you, that it is more cost-efficient to simply force-trade as many of their mages as possible for nearly free, forcing the AI to Loathe you, and then buying their trust back. This is especially valid for Death, since everything Death related usually has an added value, due to being the antagonists.
So, I´m curious... Is there any logic behind the decision? Is it how powerful mages can be, in terms of both Combat and Adventure? I doubt it´s because of guarding magical knowledge lore-wise, because spells usually have similar Barter value. Come to think of it... How come the AI does not view a player´s offered Mage with a similarly inflated value?
No disrespect meant, was simply curious since a long while, and it occurred to ask only recently. Apologies in case this topic/feature has been covered before.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 22, 2018 8:52:29 GMT -6
Mages are a high value unit, and when they're scarce among a faith, that adds value, especially if high in level.
|
|
|
|
Post by plebeian on Aug 22, 2018 10:00:01 GMT -6
Mages are a high value unit, and when they're scarce among a faith, that adds value, especially if high in level. That is understandable, but any particular reason why? The total cost of a mage isn't too much higher than the total cost of a thief or a warrior, yet their value is inflated to the point, that it is possible to buy three warriors *and* a few thieves in exchange for one measly level 3 mage, and that's not counting buying the spells as well (assuming the levels are equal).
I don't mean to be disrespectful or belittle the value of a mage in battle, but isn't that pricing a bit absurd...? Please, don´t take it as me wanting to change it, it is actually a very interesting and balanced feature (not to mention that it helps put the MAGIC in the Lords of Magic), but it is still amusing, considering one low leveled spell-less mage is more expensive than a Warrior and a Thief with fully-stacked armies of Military and Missile units.
Looking at this a bit deeper, I can understand the value. All aside, Crystals are the most demanded resource in the game, for obvious reasons. And since each AI mage also has three mana potions of 12 crystals, that adds to the value. In any case, sorry for the bother! Just thought to ponder topics yet to be discussed, is all.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 22, 2018 11:14:10 GMT -6
If the Mage is also in possession of artifacts, that will further inflate the price.
Mages are simply valued higher in barter. Other factors include the scarcity of the unit being bargained for (especially if it makes up a large value of the player's standing armies), artifacts the mage possess.
I don't fully understand all of the facets of how certain things are valued.
This is Lords of Magic, after all. Not necessarily Lords of Combat.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 22, 2018 11:20:20 GMT -6
From what I have seen in 'gs/market.gs' is that Mages are valued 5 times as much as any other unit by the AI. Mages have a value of 1 versus 0.2 for all other units.
|
|
|
|
Post by plebeian on Aug 22, 2018 12:03:40 GMT -6
From what I have seen in 'gs/market.gs' is that Mages are valued 5 times as much as any other unit by the AI. Mages have a value of 1 versus 0.2 for all other units. That makes sense with everything I´ve seen so far. As mentioned before, it´s a welcome change. Mages are, after all, powerful enough to influence combat, terrain, adventuring movement/attrition and even economy. Not to mention that they cost precious crystals, which is especially painful for faiths that depend on Creatures, Healing, or removing nasty Pixies or Minor Rust effects (nice touch on making it painful, by the way!). It is a nice touch that their value reflects on their potential. Whether by the original game or by the mod, it goes to show the heart that was put into creating the world itself.
Though, it´s just a random thought, but maybe it could be possible to make the AI automatically decline trades, if the result would lead to negative standings like Loathing or Hostility? As broken as trading is, the worst exploit, is that one can simply trade for *everything* an AI has (available units, spells, *all the mages*, thousands of resources, artifacts...) with no consequences, if their standing is high enough (like Trust or Devotion). And the AI will accept it, even if it makes them Loathe the player to the worst level...
|
|
|
|
Post by lemminkainen on Aug 24, 2018 2:10:57 GMT -6
Have you tried trading an early mage, even lvl 1, for a lot of stuff from the AI? Totally worth it.  |
|
|
|
Post by plebeian on Aug 24, 2018 4:04:04 GMT -6
Have you tried trading an early mage, even lvl 1, for a lot of stuff from the AI? Totally worth it.  It is possible, but you probably know how it´s possible to abuse the trading for your advantage in nearly any way, not necessarily sacrificing a Mage (which is still the most expensive Champion to have, never denied that). Heck, you could just go to your nicest neighbour on day 1 - 2, offer a minor Plea to make them devoted (so they value your resources the most), and go shopping! After a dozen trades, you both could be devoted to each other, except you would net their +1000 resources for no cost (you could even buy that mage you´ve traded, even if the AI over-inflates their value).
Your idea is good, though. o: Never thought of starting the game that way!
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 24, 2018 9:51:24 GMT -6
Just to clear up, the Trade Value of a mage is based upon it's overall barter value.
In trade, there are complex (I have not sorted them out yet) calculations on how each unit, building and resource is valued in a trade.
Mages, compared to other units, have a value (possibly multiplier) five times different from other units (value of 1.0 for mages, value of 0.2 for others).
In the GS5 mod, a Mage's barter value is effected by the barter value of the spells your faith knows of that mage's faith. Normally speaking, if you're Chaos, it's a Chaos Mage dealing with Chaos spells. So as the Chaos faith, the total knowledge of Chaos spells you have will effect the "Barter Value" (and thus trade value and combat values) of the Chaos mage.
The Chaos Mage should receive an increased Barter Value based upon one-tenth of the Barter Value of Chaos spells known. If you only have knowledge of Chaos Bolt (80 barter value), all Chaos mages in your control improve by 8. (I do not recall if this applies to spells not-normally castable by mages, such as Detect Spells)
Also, as far as Combat Value and Trade value, a mage with depleted mana will be considered "less powerful" versus a mage with full mana.
Evenly matched wizards going 1-on-1 in an auto-calc situation, the mage with the least mana is slated to lose.
The spell knowledge bonus mages receive to the Barter Value from the player's known spells can only come into play if the Mage has enough mana to even cast that spell.
If a mage has only 6 mana, then he only receives a Barter Value bonus for spell knowledge for any spell that costs 6 mana or less.
If you had a 10th Level Mage with 20/20 mana but had no spell knowledge, it would be just as well that he had no mana at all (I think).
|
|
|
|
Post by plebeian on Aug 24, 2018 10:09:26 GMT -6
Just to clear up, the Trade Value of a mage is based upon it's overall barter value. In trade, there are complex (I have not sorted them out yet) calculations on how each unit, building and resource is valued in a trade. Mages, compared to other units, have a value (possibly multiplier) five times different from other units (value of 1.0 for mages, value of 0.2 for others). In the GS5 mod, a Mage's barter value is effected by the barter value of the spells your faith knows of that mage's faith. Normally speaking, if you're Chaos, it's a Chaos Mage dealing with Chaos spells. So as the Chaos faith, the total knowledge of Chaos spells you have will effect the "Barter Value" (and thus trade value and combat values) of the Chaos mage. The Chaos Mage should receive an increased Barter Value based upon one-tenth of the Barter Value of Chaos spells known. If you only have knowledge of Chaos Bolt (80 barter value), all Chaos mages in your control improve by 8. (I do not recall if this applies to spells not-normally castable by mages, such as Detect Spells) Also, as far as Combat Value and Trade value, a mage with depleted mana will be considered "less powerful" versus a mage with full mana. Evenly matched wizards going 1-on-1 in an auto-calc situation, the mage with the least mana is slated to lose. The spell knowledge bonus mages receive to the Barter Value from the player's known spells can only come into play if the Mage has enough mana to even cast that spell. If a mage has only 6 mana, then he only receives a Barter Value bonus for spell knowledge for any spell that costs 6 mana or less. If you had a 10th Level Mage with 20/20 mana but had no spell knowledge, it would be just as well that he had no mana at all (I think). Wow, I had no idea there were so many factors to consider... Especially the fact that your faith´s overall spell knowledge increases the appropriate mage´s combat/barter value. Makes one think twise before equipping an artifact that unlocks a powerful spell and going for a trade.
The mana amounts make sense, makes me also wonder if the AI adds the two potions of 12 mana the mages usually have to the ¨mana pool¨. They certainly do increase the value, just don´t remember if by much. It also seems like the AI would take into account the most powerful spell available for that particular faith (similarly how AI mages usually use their most powerful magic, before proceeding to spam bolt spells).
All of this is very interesting information, but all these talks of increasing Mage champion values make the ¨tower¨ dungeons much more appealing, especially if a Volunteer mage is rescued from it! Shame that hirelings cannot be recruited from Village buildings, but it´s a nice balancing addition, plus keeps mercenaries relevant, in case the player desperately needs a mage.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemminkainen on Sept 2, 2018 13:10:49 GMT -6
Thank you guys, I'm reading a lot of interesting, new things about this game. I actually never tried using a plea early on the allied neighbours!
|
|
|
|
Post by plebeian on Sept 2, 2018 17:02:00 GMT -6
Thank you guys, I'm reading a lot of interesting, new things about this game. I actually never tried using a plea early on the allied neighbours! It´s a great way to give away little to increase the relationship fast (granted, your people Loathe them, but doesn´t matter much). The drawback, is that there´s a high possibility that they will decline your Plea, but it could be a great tool, especially with Death and opposing faiths. |
|
|
|
Post by Frodo Baggins on Aug 19, 2020 10:01:43 GMT -6
I am thinking of ways to make batter better starting with raising and lowering values of all units to see what effect that will have as well looking for values for buildings, spells, and resources to see what tweaking values will do.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemminkainen on Aug 21, 2020 2:13:58 GMT -6
Just modify this line in market.gs it shouldn't be too complicated.
/unit_market_multiplier{barter_id barter_unit UNIT_TYPE getunitdata /magedict exch known{1}{.2}ifelse}/magedict << unittypedict begin liwiz true lildw true dewiz true deldw true deldr true orwiz true orldw true chwiz true chldw true fiwiz true fildw true wawiz true waldw true eawiz true ealdw true aiwiz true aildw true chwz2 true dewz2 true deldr true chld2 true lildr true deld1 true end >> replace bind def
I'm interested in you telling us how the game plays with modified values, if the AI behaves better or if the game seems more interesting or the trade less abusive, maybe Boaster would be interested in adding the changes in his mod.
|
|
|
|
Post by Frodo Baggins on Aug 21, 2020 21:18:21 GMT -6
I raised the value for mages to 5 and all other units to 2.4 and it made dramatic swings when trading. Not sure how to make it harder to trade up to devotion yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 22, 2020 5:31:55 GMT -6
I raised the value for mages to 5 and all other units to 2.4 and it made dramatic swings when trading. Not sure how to make it harder to trade up to devotion yet. There are racial relations factoring in. Such that, between Air and Life, it's super easy to get both sides up to Devotion with no problem. Fire and Death are like this. Basically, some faiths have better trade relations and more easily and positively improve relations. Order and Earth is a little better than trying for Chaos and Earth, or it may be about the same. |
|
|
|
Post by Frodo Baggins on Aug 23, 2020 21:44:26 GMT -6
Do you know where to find these interfaith trading values? If so, any ideas to enable the to be on equal terms across the board?
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 24, 2020 9:25:52 GMT -6
Do you know where to find these interfaith trading values? If so, any ideas to enable the to be on equal terms across the board? Try diplo.gs |
|
|
|
Post by Frodo Baggins on Aug 27, 2020 20:03:14 GMT -6
Another thing I found when leveling off barter values was the race array. It appears to have only 4 races? What might they be Elves, Dark Elves, Human and non human/non elf(fire/air giant and dwarf/halfling)?
|
|
|
|
Post by Boaster on Aug 28, 2020 3:31:12 GMT -6
Another thing I found when leveling off barter values was the race array. It appears to have only 4 races? What might they be Elves, Dark Elves, Human and non human/non elf(fire/air giant and dwarf/halfling)? It's not something I've modded or investigated yet. Don't know. |
|
