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Post by l'Ancien on Oct 31, 2005 19:29:52 GMT -6
Did you take out Blades of Fury?! Noooo!
The rest of this update looks cool, but I'm a little [glow=red,2,300]lot[/glow] bugged by the substitution of a bolt spell for blades of fury.
One of the interesting challenges of playing as Chaos was making do without a simple bolt spell at the beginning of the game. It required much more imaginative thinking than simply whipping out the basic bolt spell everywhere. But Blades of Fury eventually made up for that initial short-fall, because when you finally got it you could do some real damage fast, as long as you could keep your own units from playing in it.
I understand the concept of balance, but I don't think it should mean taking away the unique challenges and benefits of each team. The thing that makes this game unique is the different flavor of each team, and that peculiarity of Chaos (no reliable spells) is part of the unique character of the faction.
I do not object to the concept of the random bolt spell per se, but I think it should be a later spell, like most of the spells you have added before (that come at the end of their book). In other words, a very experienced Shaman might discover how to achieve relative reliability of effect, even if the appearance is variable, but no beginning shaman is going to master a spell that reliably does damage to a specific target, for only 2 mana. It should possibly cost more as well.
I must compliment you on the effort involved in figuring out how to rearrange the order of the spells. That could come in useful for other relevant spells that should come earlier in the sequence (like Feather Sword). I just think the effort is misplaced on an early bolt spell for Chaos.
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Post by l'Ancien on Oct 31, 2005 19:50:27 GMT -6
While you're adding spells to Chaos, how about this overland spell?
A while ago, I asked for "Walk the Paths" (overland teleportation spell for Chaos). Besides having a fair mana cost, such a spell should cause many side effects.
I recommend all of the following (simultaneously): Chaos spell damage to all units as a random percentage of max hitpoints, drain current movement from all non-shaman units as a random percentage of normal max movement, drain future movement from all non-Chaos units as a random percentage of normal max movement, and drain all current mana from non-Chaos mages (100% of current mana). The reduced movement and damage effects should be subject to Chaos resistence calculations. Increasing the ale upkeep of every unit by one for the next turn or two would be good too, and they should refuse to travel by "the paths" again until they've recovered from the experience (a turn or two).
The spell should target any location (but not buildings), and transport the caster's party to that location, applying the side effects to every unit in the party.
If you implement this spell, please draw the spell description in the spell book from "The Travels of l'Ancien" (rather than the Book of ManTerA or something).
The following blurb could be used, or cut down to fit:
I stumbled and fell at the Shaman's feet as I staggered after her from the howling void, sick and vomiting. At that moment I vowed never again follow a Shaman into anything--especially not into those mysterious paths that she had claimed were the shortest way to anywhere.
Like any mage, I had frequently sent messages or tokens through that mind-numbing vortex, but never had I considered what the effect would be on a living thing. Now I know why no sane mage has ever sent anything living that way, let alone gone through himself.
Even the thought of using magic myself made me vomit again. She laughed at my suffering, but gave me a wineskin to drown my pain.
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Post by l'Ancien on Oct 31, 2005 20:11:27 GMT -6
While I'm mentioning that, I humbly request that the spell description for the following two spells be changed to include a reference to l'Ancien rather than ManTerA. The Travels of l'Ancien would be an appropriate name for the source book. I know that it was only through your ability that those two spells, as well as the many others you created, have come into existence. I do not wish to take away from your accomplishment in any way. It is your mod, no matter how many complaints or suggestions I make. However, in addition to the credits where you list me as a mod contributor (spells), I ask that you mark the specific spells I suggested first by placing my name on the blurb. Spells I have argued about (inferno), suggested small improvements for, or otherwise affected in a small way are not included in this request. I only would like to be mentioned on spells ideas that I discovered (thought of and suggested first). In the future, I will include mention of my desire on any spell suggestion I make that I consider to be within the scope of this request. I have previously mentioned Flood and Make Road as potential terraform spell ideas, but I don't know if you will actually implement them. I think Flood would be interesting (turn land to water, damage any units in radius) but Make Road is no longer needed, since you changed movement rules to consider friendly terrain as roads--A much better and neater solution.
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Post by l'Ancien on Oct 31, 2005 20:29:26 GMT -6
Roulette shouldn't be in the defensive section, or I'll never keep straight which one does what.
The Chaos random stat-change spells already have me confused, except that I know what they do by where I find them.
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Post by Boaster on Oct 31, 2005 23:48:40 GMT -6
Vortex is still there. Blades of Fury was just another vortex-like spell in the Chaos Library. Its still in the game, and I may yet use it for something better. Chaos still has it's own flavor, which is unpredictability.
I'm not changing the order of the Chaos spells any different than from what I have. If you noticed, I placed Headwind before Poison Cloud in the Air Library. It made more sense that way.
You can still remember which one is Gamble, and which one is Roulette. Roulette is lie the wheel icon, Gamble is the +/-. Change of Fate looks like a lightning bolt hitting an eye. They do have tooltips to help you.
Even though you suggested Path of Fire, I was going around adding Summon spells for all the faiths. Is that the name you suggested it as? Anyways, I would've added the spell whether you suggested it or not. But you can have credit for it.
However, with Pacify, you didn't exactly propose it as it exists. You suggested the removal of attack. I saw what you said but improved upon the concept and made it a reverse Blind Rage.
Those two spells were your ideas, but not entirely. I will give you credit for them though. By the way, its ManTerA's Book of Legends. When you can do the coding then we'll talk about changing the texts ;D
Walk the Paths was an idea already suggested previously, except not with the same name. Someone just wanted a Teleport spell, but I could not come up with one. I may be able to some time down the line.
I originally made a terraform spell which changed land into water, but I just changed that to an overland attack spell. You're a little late on suggesting that.
Yes, friendly terrain is like road now. Air units, on the overland map, travel the same over any terrain. Combat is different.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 1, 2005 19:24:29 GMT -6
Fair enough on the credits. I don't know how hard it is to code, but even though I like my writing, yours is good too. I didn't suggest the name path of fire, but I posted on the LOM newsgroup or whatever several times the idea of summon demon. Not that it wasn't a fairly obvious idea, but I just posted laments from time to time that it had been "forgotten" by the original developers.
On Pacify, you're right, I did suggest just the name and just the part about removing attack. But I think my concept was well represented in the final result.
I guess my reaction was partly that I'd have liked to write the text, but more when I saw that "my spell" had been implemented, and then saw your name on the bottom, I was a little disappointed. Something about each of us likes to see our names in print, especially when someone else has control of putting it there, and not just misspelled in a text file somewhere. (Actually, you might have it correct in the text file, but it is missing the apostrophe on your web-page.…) (incorrect statement removed)
Every time I've talked about spells to add (on the other page) I've suggested Walk the Paths, as an overland teleport spell. I suggested that you inspect the Air Temple Annex to figure out how the building power teleports armies. I have no idea how hard or easy that is, but the game definitely has an overland teleport power that allows selecting a location. A big part of balancing such a powerful spell is stacking negative side effects onto it, so it's not easy to appear out of nowhere and attack. (It's more like appear out of nowhere, stand around for a turn, and get mauled by the first thing that comes looking for you, and if you survive that, then you can attack.)
I know I had composed a list of spells I wanted to see, and reposted the ones I could remember periodically, but that started before I knew anyone could really make them. I thought I immediately reposted the list when I heard you had found ways to make new spells, but maybe you didn't actually see it. I thought you had. (Summon Demon/Walk the Paths/Flood/Make Road were on that list, but Pacify was not-it came later) I had proposed Flood as a combined terraform and attack spell, like the original death swamp spell (whatever it was called). I don't play as water often, so I didn't notice when you added any variation on Flood.
Except for Pacify and Walk the Paths, I acknowledge that many of my spell ideas weren't particularly original. I composed my additional list as a gee-whiz list of "spells the developers forgot to put in", just a list of stunningly obvious spells that somehow didn't get included in the game.
So I can't blame you for thinking of the same things. I just kind of thought those were ideas I had posted on a thread you started about your mod. No wait. I posted it on Loraquin's LOMII thread, where I started mixing the two concepts together. It wasn't until Loraquin complained about my hijacking his thread to talk about your mod that I realized that they were different topics.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 1, 2005 19:41:09 GMT -6
Vortex is still there. Blades of Fury was just another vortex-like spell in the Chaos Library. Its still in the game, and I may yet use it for something better. Chaos still has it's own flavor, which is unpredictability. I'm not changing the order of the Chaos spells any different than from what I have. If you noticed, I placed Headwind before Poison Cloud in the Air Library. It made more sense that way. You can still remember which one is Gamble, and which one is Roulette. Roulette is lie the wheel icon, Gamble is the +/-. Change of Fate looks like a lightning bolt hitting an eye. They do have tooltips to help you. Blades of Fury is not just another vortex spell. It's the best of the three, as far as I'm concerned. Vortex is supposedly larger, but all I ever got out of it is a single ball that does just one damage on impact. Fury fire does more damage, and is predicatable once it gets going, so it's easy to use in a fight where your own people are close by. But Blades of Fury does significant damage in a small space, quickly. It's the kind of spell that can decimate your own army if you're careless, but that always scares me when cast by marauders. It would be a great loss to the game. It is most emphatically not just another vortex spell. I didn't complain, in fact I cheered, when you replaced the ho-hum Walk Among Us with the more relevant Summon Zombie. Conceptually the spells had the identical purpose (raising zombies), except Walk Among Us gave a useless unit (half attack ) that died at the end of battle anyway. You could even still name it the same thing, but your effect is better, even if it basically duplicates the effect of summon skeleton and summon shade. It is conceptually true to the image and feel of the faith and the game as a whole. But simply taking out a unique and powerful Chaos spell to replace it with a me-too zap spell, however cleverly done did not catch my fancy. However, after logging off yesterday, I thought of a really cool effect: Put Roulette back in the attack book. Take Random Bolt out of the research list (but not out of the game). Make casting Random Bolt one of the possible effects of casting Roulette. Maybe add a few other bizarre, low power (2 mana type) effects. Add an accidental Cure Wounds (that can affect enemy units) as one of the effects, so it's not quite as reliable.After my complaint (which still stands) about losing Blades of Fury and replacing it with an artistic but basically copy-cat spell (every other faith has it, and Chaos felt left out), I started imagining casting a spell, with no idea what the result would be, and getting Lightning, or Rust, or Heat Metal. That would be wild. Then I imagined casting it on an enemy, almost dead, as the finisher, and getting Cure Wounds instead, and having to kill the unit all over again. I started laughing, and decided I needed to suggest it.
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Post by Boaster on Nov 1, 2005 20:00:44 GMT -6
I'll consider the revision of text with Pacify and Path of Fire, if you can come up with worthy enough texts. I can admit, I sometimes may not put a great effort forth in the texts of some spells but I careless as I'm just trying to get them in the books for testing and such. The "Travels of l'Ancien" would make sense for that Walk of Paths spell, but not necessarily Pacify or Path of Fire. When I thought of what to call the Demon summoning spell, I thought Path of Fire would be good seeing as there was A. A representable spell icon, and B. It sounds like you're opening the Gates of Hell and treading forth an angry demon.
Flood spell, like I said before, I had in as a terraform spell. Not like the original Pestilence, just a normal one. At the time, that spell was just insane because other faiths would have to spend like 40 mana removing what Flood did. Now, other faiths can cast their terraform spells over water. It would still be a little too powerful though. I just decided to make it an overland attack spell, and then later on added an effect for each of the overland attack spells to limit their (abusive) effects.
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Blades of Fury was not unique. Fury Fire was the same, Vortex is the same and even better with high level mages on the account that Vortex will launch multiple twirling balls to an area of enemies. Vortex, albeit 1 damage, is still a helluva spell. I'm considering changing the 1 damage to a random 1 to 3.
I already thought of such an idea after I made the Random Bolt spell. I thought of it because now that I knew how to cast a spell within a spell, I opened up other doors. However, Roulette will remain in the defensive category because Bless, Visage, Morale, and Holy Visit also happen to affect enemies negatively. Think of it as an offensively-defensive spell. Plus, it just looks nicer (to me anyways). I can pause the game, cast gamble, que up roulette, and have an attack spell qued up without additional pauses.
I'll take another look at a teleport spell, but I don't think Chaos will be the one to obtain it. In fact, I don't know which faith it would fit best with.
Chaos Bolt will remain where it is, but I have a plan for change to it. Rename it to just Random Bolt, and add a Chaos Bolt that looks like Blades of Fury/Destruction, but have it be a bolt damage all its own. Not sure if I will run with this idea just yet.
By the way, I think its funny that Loraquin thought you were hijacking his thread. All of those guys seem to be too uptight, and they rarely talk about LOM anyways. I'm happy to provide some first amendment freedoms here. Even if you hate me. But spam is one thing I wouldn't likely allow.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 2, 2005 11:16:34 GMT -6
By the way, I don't hate you.
I love your work with the mod, it's better than no improvements at all. I just have lots of opinions, and since you're the only route to get anything done currently (since I can't program my own mod), I'm just picking on you. Consider all this constructive criticism and feedback from a user. (That's what a beta is for, after all.)
True, Blades of Fury was not completely unique. But what about flame dart, flame arrow, and fireball? Are those unique? No, they all have shared elements, and at base, they all send one or more projectiles directly at a target to do some amount of damage. But the level of damage and the focus or diversity of that damage are different. Flame arrow and Fireball provide different focus levels of projectiles, just like Vortex and Blades of Fury provide different levels of vortex attack. Also, Fury Fire and Blades of Fury are qualitatively different, because Fury Fire is more predictable, and Blades of Fury moved more erratically. Besides, they're in different teams, so Fury Fire has no bearing on Blades of Fury, any more than the redundancy of spirit arrow and righteous bolt.
I guess I am simply frustrated by removing spells. I like your mod because you generally either enhance, correct, or add things to the game. But I'm not happy with a mod that removes things from the game. I'm even a little tweaked by removing the AI garrisons, but those caused enough problems that we're just as well off without them, so I'm not complaining. But when it comes to simply taking out a spell, I don't see how that improves anything.
Read the blurb on Chaos Teleport Artifact. It mentions walking the paths, and only Chaos shamans dare to do it (along with those unlucky souls they drag along).
It's just the extended or overland version of Blink, which is a Chaos spell. If anything's going to allow teleportation, it's some variation of chaos theory probability theory or quantum mechanics, and who better than a Shaman to figure it out?
Also, it's such a powerful spell, conceptually, that it has to carry lots of bad side effects to balance it, and Chaos seems the most likely to have those. (The Air teleportation Shrine is either distance limited or presence limited, requiring someone already on the spot, this idea has neither limit).
I just think a bolt spell is too reliable for Chaos. It would be better if it were blended with Roulette, because then you wouldn't be able to know for sure whether it would do damage, or just stun or reduce armor or something.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 2, 2005 11:27:17 GMT -6
Wait, maybe I'm forgetting something. Does Roulette target the whole battlefield (like visage of horror) or does it target a unit?
I thought it targeted a single (enemy) unit, and either reduced armor, or reduced attack, or stunned them, or did a little damage (a random bolt spell would be cooler here than "does a little damage"). Maybe I'm confusing it with another spell. I don't use Chaos stat modification spells much, relying more on direct attacks (like Blades of Fury and Hand of Fate). I thought Change of Fate was the general effect spell that is both offensive and defensive, but mostly defensive.
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Post by Boaster on Nov 2, 2005 14:35:50 GMT -6
Wait, maybe I'm forgetting something. Does Roulette target the whole battlefield (like visage of horror) or does it target a unit? I thought it targeted a single (enemy) unit, and either reduced armor, or reduced attack, or stunned them, or did a little damage (a random bolt spell would be cooler here than "does a little damage"). Maybe I'm confusing it with another spell. I don't use Chaos stat modification spells much, relying more on direct attacks (like Blades of Fury and Hand of Fate). I thought Change of Fate was the general effect spell that is both offensive and defensive, but mostly defensive. You're thinking of Ring of Anything. Roulette targets the enemy army, and you do not get to select a target. Once clicked, it automatically fires and does its affects. Roulette does random -1 to +1 combat stats, much the same way that Gamble does this, but also provides a chance for some improved missile resistance. The Random Bolt isn't "always" reliable. What if you're fighting a Death Team, cast the spell and a bunch of curse missiles extend out? Just because it's chaos doesn't mean it has to be unreliable. Chaos can be unpredictable as well. I don't see how Fury Fire and Blades are any different, besides amount of damage per hit and their respective faiths and missile art. Observe the following: No real difference. The graphics you see in their differences is only an illusion. So no spell is any less or more predictable than the other. Blades will remain out of the spell books, until further notice.s
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 2, 2005 20:27:27 GMT -6
Roulette vs Anything. That's what I was starting to realize. It was ring of anything I was thinking. With that information, I see why Roulette is in the defensive spell section. That makes sense now. Sorry for that confusion. I told you I couldn't keep them straight. -------------- I don't see what's wrong with Blades of Fury, or why it needs to be removed. I like that spell. I like the way it looks, and I like Chaos having a small intense vortex as well as a large light vortex, kind of like Fire has both Fireball and Flame Arrow (besides Flame Dart). Realizing that the perceived difference is mainly just the animation doesn't really change my enjoyment of casting the spell. I also don't see the relevance of the similar code for Fury Fire and Blades of Fury. My Chaos Shaman can't cast Fury Fire without a scroll even if they are identical, so it doesn't do her any good anyway. And by the very same logic, I could argue that Random bolt is only copying a spell that already exists in 7 varieties, so why do we need another one anyway? It's even more redundant than Blades of Fury. Not only is it practically the same, it exactly duplicates one of the other 7 spells when it is cast. Good point, however, about the random effects versus different resistences. That does introduce some unpredictability to it. I guess I could get used to a random bolt spell for Chaos, although I always considered Hand of Fate to be the equivalent of the bolt spell, and thought Chaos was extra cool because it was so different from the other Faith's spells. Speaking of bolt spells, could you switch the animation for Righteous Bolt and Spirit Arrow? It always bugged me that Righteous Bolt had a little arrow, and Spirit Arrow looked like a blast of light. And please reconsider axing Blades of Fury from the game. I keep on going to download the update, but I just don't have the heart to install it, and lose access to that spell. I'd like to see the other work you've done, but this game brings out the nostalgia in me stronger than in any other game, and the thought of losing part of the experience is oddly devastating. I'd always imagined having new spells added to the game, but I never wished any of them would be removed, even when they're used against me.
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Post by Boaster on Nov 2, 2005 22:04:39 GMT -6
Crash was replaced by Gamble. Wheel of Fortune was replaced by Roulette. Yet those did not bother you?
Chaos's Hand of Fate is like Balkoth's Word, or Fireball. They're bigger than bolts, but smaller than massive spells. They're bent on doing high damage to a single target.
Chaos Bolt is staying, and Bladees of Fury is not coming back into the spell book, until further notice, no matter how hard you argue. I know you like the spell and have a passion for it, but some change is for the better. For now, that spell is on the shelf just like some of the newer artifacts I've added to the game (for future needs). I have given some light compensation by improving vortex's range of damage from just 1 to random 0 to (caster level)/5, with a minimum 0 to 1.
Your shaman does not need a fury fire scroll if she has vortex. Same affect, lighter damage, and more potential spinning missiles.
Again, it is not coming back.
I'm not switching the missiles of Righteous Bolt or Spirit Arrow. Life is the one with the smaller glowing arrow.
I like what I have done with Chaos Bolt and Blades of Fury. I no longer wish to debate this. If you have something else in mind you can rattle it in my ear. But if you rattle on too many times about one thing, it gets old. I would hate to have to use my moderatorship to lock this up.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 4, 2005 13:04:30 GMT -6
So you renamed them, and tweaked the effect. I appreciate the effort, and I think I like them better now. I didn't say that all change was bad, otherwise I'd just be playing the original. Crash wasn't a particularly useful spell, because enough uses of it would get your unit killed anyway.
If Spirit Arrow already looks like an arrow, that's all I wanted. It just seemed to me that it didn't have the shape of an arrow, just a spike.
I'm through arguing about the bolt spell. It's an additional option, and gives a player the choice to use it or not. In truth, it takes nothing away. At first it bugged me, because it changed a preconception. But more recently I was only using it as an example of the irrelevance of comparing spells across faiths.
The more relevant argument you made was comparing it to Vortex. Comparing Blades of Fury and Vortex is like comparing Fireball and Flame Arrow. They do different things with similar special effects, so I disagree with the conclusion that they are redundant. The Blades of Fury damage is greater and the area of effect is smaller than the supposedly comparable Vortex, as well as a lower mana cost, almost exactly equivalent to the relationship between fireball and flame arrow. The difference is that the fire spells have a projectile effect, and the chaos spells have a persistent effect.
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Post by l'Ancien on Nov 4, 2005 13:21:16 GMT -6
However, if you swapped the graphics to use blades of fury graphics in Vortex, and boosted the damage to range between 0 and level/3, then it would be like the two spells were blended, rather than simply removing one of them. I could live with that compromise, if Blades of Fury really must go for some important reason.
That's all. I'm done.
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Post by Boaster on Nov 4, 2005 14:53:24 GMT -6
The more relevant argument you made was comparing it to Vortex. Comparing Blades of Fury and Vortex is like comparing Fireball and Flame Arrow. They do different things with similar special effects, so I disagree with the conclusion that they are redundant. The Blades of Fury damage is greater and the area of effect is smaller than the supposedly comparable Vortex, as well as a lower mana cost, almost exactly equivalent to the relationship between fireball and flame arrow. The difference is that the fire spells have a projectile effect, and the chaos spells have a persistent effect. Fireball and Flame Arrow are different. Fireball targets one, Flame Arrow targets many. Vortex and Blades of Fury are BOTH vortex spells. No matter how you look at it. I am not discussing this anymore, because I prefer not to repeat myself twelve times (and it never goes that high). No. Blades of Fury is out of the Book. Destruction has that missile art. Vortex is remaining at 0 to Level/5 with the globe missiles. I am as well.
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