Level 6 Military Units

[Boaster]

I've been thinking that maybe it's time to raise the diversity and the diversity bar and allow one military unit from each faith to obtain Level 6.

Order already has one such unit, with the Holy Knights. Except the only way for them to obtain Level 6 is with the Cathedral Special Building.

But here's what I've been thinking of doing:

Life: Archers (no brainer).
Death: Halberdiers.
Order: Knights, already there.
Chaos: Raiders.
Fire: Flame Berserkers.
Water: Lizardmen.
Air: Fae Slingers.
Earth: Dwarven Infantry.


Fae Slingers would do good with an extra HP boost from an extra level.

Any other thoughts here on this?

[solarr8]

By alowing 1 unit from each faith to reach level 6 by way of normal experience without a special building all you do is trivialize the way orders units reach level 6. Their building is less special now if you make this change

You do this by having other faiths units NOT need a special building to level to 6 while having order still need to use that method.

I'm sure you'll say something stupid like "well order can level to 6 without having to gain experience so order still has an advantage"

Wrong again. Because the other faiths units don't need to meet up at a spacific building to get that extra level therefore under this change non order units simply get to free roam to level and do not have to all bottleneck into a building.

So on a more technical level your granting a power to each other faith that order only has currently by having to go to the building just like orders knight has to jump through hoops in order to match the power of other legendaries who don't have to go through the same hoops. Same idea.

If you're going to make a change like this you'll need to do something with orders special building in order to make it have the same segnificance it does now which is being able to do something that no other faith can do by any other method i.e. a power excusive to order.

Each faiths special building power should be like the legendary creature. Grants power excusive to that faith that no other faith can replicate by any other means. Unfortunatly the knights small unique bonuses are trivialized by the fact that any level 15 warrior can destroy a level 15 knight in battle.

Now i realize that unit hiearchy dictates a leaders power trump all including a legendary creature but if you start a game on hard mode and use go far and max power on the knight to make it level 15 and start fighting some of the other faiths warrior lords and even mage and thief lords on some instances... the knight just doesn't do well. not even close

Why? because hes based off order knights which are weak in comparisin. Does the regular knight hero need to be reevaluated? I dunno.

What you outta do is take the weakest unit from each faith (you know the ones that gain exp the fastest?) and alow that unit to reach level 6) And leave orders building as it stands so that order than retains their advantage of being able to have a special building that can make knights level 6 as well as their weakest unit being able to level to 6 not because of the building but because of the normal exp method.

Thereby orders building still having segnificants. or you could always modify the building effect to be something else.

I doubt you'll actually have the ability to comprehand and digest the points in this entire post which will be proven true once you respond to it with the typical boaster answer (i dont have a counter to your argument so ill just try to derail your points by dodging the issue) however it doesn't mean i won't try as futile as it is.

[Boaster]

So you think the fact that if other military units from other faiths can obtain Level 6 then that means Holy Knights are somehow worthless?


Things you do not understand include, but are not limited to:

• Holy Knights have 11% melee resistance.
  
• Knights have 0% melee resistance.
  
• Holy Knights combat speed is 5.
  
• Knights combat speed is 6.
  
• Holy Knights have 22 movement.
  
• Knights have 20 movement.
  
• Holy Knights have 4 sight radius.
  
• Knights have 2 sight radius.
  
• Holy Knights have 8/4/4 health recovery.
  
• Knights have 6/3/3 health recovery.
  
• Holy Knights have 50% Order Resistance.
  
• Knights have 25% Order Resistance.
  
• Holy Knights stealth factor is 10.
  
• Knights stealth factor is 12.
  
• Holy Knights hit recovery is 7.
  
• Knights hit recovery is 10 (never changes with level).
  

No other Military Class unit EVER improves on these stats!

As far as "jumping hoops": one free level of experience (which would otherwise require 21600 for Knights to reach Level 6), a Wisdom Bonus, protection from Confusion or Possession spells by way of Special Building effect, and several tertiary stat bonuses.



21600 experience to reach Level 6 for Knights.
22500 experience to reach Level 10 for Paladin.


By the way, Legendary Knight isn't going to be changed in the mod. You'll have to make those changes for yourself.


Military Class units that all ready can reach Level 6:

• Centaur Swordsmen
  
• Centaur Hunters
  
• Trolls
  
• Orc Spearmen
  
• Wolf Riders
  
• Goblin Archers
  

[thomas420]

I like the idea of adding 1 class of each faith that can get to level six. Just don't make them too powerful so that everyone just uses that single unit for all of their armies, without using other units. But yeah I think it's a great idea.

And no it does not trivialize the order special building. For one the order special building still grants warrior champions 1 level. And like you said solarr8, the knights won't have to earn the experience for their last level. Honestly the order special building would still be more useful than say Death's, Fire's and Life's, water's and Earths; in my opinion anyways.

[thomas420]

Besides, Order still has some of the beast group buffs in the game, and they stack. So if you got a group of nine of your holy knights and you go up against a group of nine level six units, and you have your mage there. You really shouldn't have a problem. I don't see how this could mess with order.

[solarr8]

May 19, 2010 16:30:44 GMT -6 Boaster said:

So you think the fact that if other military units from other faiths can obtain Level 6 then that means Holy Knights are somehow worthless?


Things you do not understand include, but are not limited to:

• Holy Knights have 11% melee resistance.
  
• Knights have 0% melee resistance.
  
• Holy Knights combat speed is 5.
  
• Knights combat speed is 6.
  
• Holy Knights have 22 movement.
  
• Knights have 20 movement.
  
• Holy Knights have 4 sight radius.
  
• Knights have 2 sight radius.
  
• Holy Knights have 8/4/4 health recovery.
  
• Knights have 6/3/3 health recovery.
  
• Holy Knights have 50% Order Resistance.
  
• Knights have 25% Order Resistance.
  
• Holy Knights stealth factor is 10.
  
• Knights stealth factor is 12.
  
• Holy Knights hit recovery is 7.
  
• Knights hit recovery is 10 (never changes with level).
  

No other Military Class unit EVER improves on these stats!

As far as "jumping hoops": one free level of experience (which would otherwise require 21600 for Knights to reach Level 6), a Wisdom Bonus, protection from Confusion or Possession spells by way of Special Building effect, and several tertiary stat bonuses.



21600 experience to reach Level 6 for Knights.
22500 experience to reach Level 10 for Paladin.


By the way, Legendary Knight isn't going to be changed in the mod. You'll have to make those changes for yourself.


Military Class units that all ready can reach Level 6:

• Centaur Swordsmen
  
• Centaur Hunters
  
• Trolls
  
• Orc Spearmen
  
• Wolf Riders
  
• Goblin Archers
  

most stats grow anyway as you level so alot of that post is just fluff. Ya the 11 percent melee resistance and the 50 pct to order spells ya sure thats cool but those benefits are so trivial.

I mean for fucks sake how often is an order unit going to actually encounter an enemy order mage for the increased resist to matter.

Big whoop

Boaster, you make the same damn dead boring tasteless apple pie except you add a measly cinimon stick to it and expect people to go wow thats amaizing

How about you work on making the pie better.

And thomas: Wow the order building works on water units too. cool cause order building make water units.…

D U H !

[Boaster]

Anyone else have input?

[seamus8]

Slightly curious as to why you would pick mostly the units who were already advantageous over of races of that type.

Wouldn't it be slightly easier to balance having the weakest unit (comparative to other races) level up for each race? I could see if you wanted to keep the overall feel/playstyle of each race intact, but really it could be seen as almost forcing that particular playstyle.

Just a thought.

A second thought might be to make the extra level untrainable by building. After all you can train elite troops, but you can't train veteran elite troops. Especially when combined with high xp point requirements to level, this would produce some interesting parts of the game.

To get the best units you can get, you have to keep them alive and use units that maybe a little gimp at level 5. See an elf party with a full complement of archers? Of course he's dangerous. See an elf party with an abnormally high amount of staffmen? He may be a pushover or he maybe harder than the archer player.

[Boaster]

I am already in the pursuit of limiting experience of trainable units to a certain level. I am in the planning stage for devising the coding.

Champions will be limited to Level 8 training.

Military units to Level 4, or Level 5.

Creatures will be limited, in someways.

[quentinak]

May 21, 2010 10:35:24 GMT -6 seamus8 said:

Slightly curious as to why you would pick mostly the units who were already advantageous over of races of that type.

Wouldn't it be slightly easier to balance having the weakest unit (comparative to other races) level up for each race? I could see if you wanted to keep the overall feel/playstyle of each race intact, but really it could be seen as almost forcing that particular playstyle.

Just a thought.

A second thought might be to make the extra level untrainable by building. After all you can train elite troops, but you can't train veteran elite troops. Especially when combined with high xp point requirements to level, this would produce some interesting parts of the game.

To get the best units you can get, you have to keep them alive and use units that maybe a little gimp at level 5. See an elf party with a full complement of archers? Of course he's dangerous. See an elf party with an abnormally high amount of staffmen? He may be a pushover or he maybe harder than the archer player.

I like the idea of the extra level that comes only from combat xp. But should not be that easy and requires a lot of xp. Otherwise, it would obviate the advantage for Order knights like Solarr8 says. And adding the possibility of gaining another level without much of a good reason doesn't add to the gaming experience. But it might be a good way to boost the use of under-utilized units.

boaster said:

Champions will be limited to Level 8 training.

Military units to Level 4, or Level 5.

But hmmm, lowering the trainable level... is that a good idea? You worked hard on gaining xp for one of your champions and then spend turns and turns inside a building to train units. Then the units produced can't go up to lvl 5 (until it goes out to gain combat xp)?? There'd be no point for champions to gain extra xp then. Regarding champion units, why level 8? Isn't that a little low? Why did I bother gaining all that xp for the trainer unit, then?

[Boaster]

I could still allow for Knights themselves to reach Level 6 and have the Cathedral work for Knights Level 5 or Level 6, where Holy Knights will always be Level 6 with their tertiary stat bonuses.

[BouncyTEM]

May 20, 2010 21:38:38 GMT -6 Boaster said:

Anyone worthwhile have input?

Fixed that for you. [/jab at Solarr]

Seriously though, I'm all for this idea. Holy Knights still get a ton of nice boosts but it would add to the possibilities, not to mention a little extra variety.

Go for it!

[Boaster]

Long time no see TEM!

[BouncyTEM]

College life is still evil.

I do know from personal experience though that adding a level 6 can add some interesting cases. I had done that in one of my own mini-mods, then took it to the extreme and allowed up to level 8.

I'd say from what you posted thus far, the choices make perfect sense and it sounds like it'd be a balanced and interesting addition.

I so agree on Fae Slingers doing good with an extra HP boost. Boy, do they need it.

[solarr8]

seamus8

"Wouldn't it be slightly easier to balance having the weakest unit (comparative to other races) level up for each race? "

Great idea having the weakest unit be the one to be able to level up to 6. I actually suggested that in an earlier thread. Hmm. Hmmm.. Hmmmmm... Well you know what they say great minds think alike.

quentinak

"I like the idea of the extra level that comes only from combat xp. But should not be that easy and requires a lot of xp. Otherwise, it would obviate the advantage for Order knights like Solarr8 says."

Hmmmm. Hmmmm. Another great idea.

quentinak (same post)

"
But hmmm, lowering the trainable level... is that a good idea? You worked hard on gaining xp for one of your champions and then spend turns and turns inside a building to train units."

Agreed. Theres a difference between making the game harder and making it more tedioous. A move like this would certainly slow the game down but not necessarily make the game more challenging.

1 problem with some of boasters changes is that in his attempts to make the game more challenging he only makes it more tedious. And of course you know tedium is the antihisis of fun factor.

BouncyTEM

"Fixed that for you. [/jab at Solarr]

Seriously though, I'm all for this idea. Holy Knights still get a ton of nice boosts but it would add to the possibilities, not to mention a little extra variety.

Go for it!"

Congradulations, you've sucessfully endorced something without backing it up

Now normally i wouldn't care except you include me in your post so ya id love to shoot shit but you're going to have to bring some substance to your position before we can talk. Or you can look like one of those people who votes without knowing what their voting for. your call.

-----

You know some of you may not like the fact that i say it how it is and dont bother to butter it up but the fact of the matter is alot of what i say makes sence and it's finally starting to echo around here. The fact that i'm not being gentle on you folks doesn't change right or wrong.

I'm not here to be popular, I'm here to be right.

[balkoth103]

I do like the idea of making one unit level 6, but I REALLY like the idea of making it the weakest units, like lets say the eagles of air! those are the most useless units ever. They're just scouts that can level. They're too weak. Then again, i'm not sure a level 6 would be much stronger, they'd have to be like level 10 to match a level 5 bezerker ;D ;D ;D

[Boaster]

You under estimate Eagles very much. Eagles, while seemingly weak, aren't that weak. They're pretty fast on all scales.

[gunther]

i like the idea of level 6 unit usualy when a unit reaches five it goes on guard duty guarding important stuff and the like and i replace em with level ones but allowing some to level 6 would give that unit more time in the field

[swiftfoxmark2]

I like the idea of having some standard units being able to reach level 6.

I also think it is a great idea to allow this for units that are better than others because that emphasizes a particular faith's strength in basic units.

As for training units, I also like the idea of limiting the maximum level that can be reached for units in a building. I would argue that it should be less than what you mentioned with standard units capped at level 3.5 and champion units capped at level 7.5. If you do this, though, you might want to consider removing the additional experience gained from dungeons for all max level units, not just non-champion units. The only reason to gain more experience for champions is so they can train max level units.

[Boaster]

The reason for more experience is because you can train units faster. You could essentially get a unit to it's max level faster if you have a but load of experience.