Lengthy play test of legendary knight

[solarr8]

Backround: Standard map (urak 1)
Hard mode
Used bingo and go far to gain legendary knight as quickly as possible
Played knight untill he reached level 10 (took forever)

We both establised previously that the legendary knight has many hidden innate bonuses and abilities that make it rise far above a standard knight champion. Based on this it may be too game breaking to have to adjust this knights stats

Problem 1. He starts out at level 6. It takes and awefully long time just to get to the point of being able to summon a legendary creature. By the time you get to that point it seems your military power over all is high enough that from a relitive standpoint he really doesnt add a whole lot to the party.

Now water has this same issue so whats the difference? Water can summon an unlimited amount of spiders potentially having 9 pairs of spiders per group! Thats phenominal! Really makes water a fun option. So what about the knight? OOPS he died and im only allowed to summon one per game so guess i lost out on a legendary creature

The knight is powerful being able to take a barrage of arrows and frontal attack and rarely get hit. Problem is with only 30? life to start he looses life in spikes. It takes the longest time to hit him but when he finally does het hit boy does he loose a chunk of life at a time.

I dunno how this is happening but all i can say is i spent almost 3 hours rolling him into dungins and ive noticed it. Just him by himself to eliminate the possiblity of any friendly units interfering with the ability to test him. Lets break it down. Compare the knight to some of the other legendaries. They by them selves can go into a dungen no less than 5 levels below them and clear the entire dungen. So what about our legendary knight? Nope he falls down flat quicker than when an ogre gets knicked in the knee.

Now you may say well the legendary knight really shines while in a group cause of rally bonus and innate wisdom etc etc etc. but the think i have to ask is why does he have to? Why is a leader legendary class so wimpy compared to a non leader legendary class. Im betting dollars to pesos that even 1 damn set of spiders can web him and kill him at his starting level.

Id say at the bare minimum make him summonable at level 10. That would be a great way you can maintain his stat and power ratios while making him more fun to play with. At level 6 he dies so fast. I know auto calc isnt suppose to be that good but damn he auto calc looses from level 1 dungens (yes i know hard mode but still) a level 6 legend dies from a pack of level 1 wolves and archers. and yes i know auto calc isnt suppose to be as good a real battle but since the cpu can only use auto calc this might make things too hard for the a. i. Just a thought and again the focus of my testing is for the legendary knight not the auto calc system so take this comment with a grane of salt

So back to the knight. Besides having him be summonable at level 10 what else can we do?

Well, i think the biggest issue is with his life. It take him a hella long time to get hit but when he finally does he spikes down. Atleast at level 6

Now consider this analysis from a fun factor stand point. Compare how gratifying it is to finally be able to summon a fafnir or an ice drake etc etc etc and then just pwn with them. You're not scared of them dying because they just dont. And the fact that you can place them in an army [Laugh out Loud] name one way to stop that army. But our poor knight? Paper.

So to recap i think a great way to allieviate this problem without making any style changes is to make it summonable at level 10 instead of level 6.

Another thing? perhaps give it some special power maybe make it so its rally is double effective for him only while being only single effective for every other unit?

Tone down the stats of the other legendaries (sans spiders) by 3/4?
(perhaps this should be done anyway?)

Please take a look at this. Do what i did. Create an army of legendaries by using bingo and go far to take over the other faiths just long enough to upgrade and summon. Go to a high level dungen of your choosing with your legendary army. Save game.
Walk in that dungen with each legendary 1 at a time and see how they fare. See which ones die which ones dont see how fast they die. The group bonus rationale will become irrelivent to you when you see how drasicly underpowered the knight is compared to the others.

Because lets face it. If one legendary is more powerful without a group than the knight is with a group...

Please consider my proposal to make the legendary knight start at atleast level 10 maybe 12 or give him some special power because by the time you actually managed to get him to level 15 the damn game is over and you won. Hell you probly won before the knight even gets to level 10. A legendary at level 6 who can drop like a fly and never be allowed to be summioned again? I think order has been cheated.



And on a side note [What The FUCK] is that spell that makes ogres super attack at lightning speed? Holy shit! When i was doing some seperate play testing with legendaries (i took over everyones temple spawned them and left) as soon as that ogre whipped out the machine gun hammer noone was safe that 1 ogre was able to kill my ice drake and im betting dollars to pesos he could have killed any legendary head on the second he threw down those after burners. I would say that as it stands the ogre is vastly overpowered. I would say that only because once he starts going berserk nothing can touch him cause there getting hit too fast. And for shits sake how long does that damn berserk thing last [Laugh out Loud]. My damn drake was at almost 2/3 life too.

And another quick thing what is the benefit of making a mage into a litch? this is another thing where you can only have 1 of these per game so just want to know what the innate bonuses are for doing this. didnt spend a whole lot of time play testing the lich so not arguing balence either way just want to know as an fyi whats the boost you get for turning a mage into a lich

Would it be beneficial to hav3e a little faq that tells people the little innate bonuses and powers the legendaries have?

[Boaster]

Mar 14, 2010 21:26:44 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

And on a side note [What The FUCK] is that spell that makes ogres super attack at lightning speed? Holy shit! When i was doing some seperate play testing with legendaries (i took over everyones temple spawned them and left) as soon as that ogre whipped out the machine gun hammer noone was safe that 1 ogre was able to kill my ice drake and im betting dollars to pesos he could have killed any legendary head on the second he threw down those after burners. I would say that as it stands the ogre is vastly overpowered. I would say that only because once he starts going berserk nothing can touch him cause there getting hit too fast. And for shits sake how long does that damn berserk thing last [Laugh out Loud]. My damn drake was at almost 2/3 life too.

Hahah, so funny! Blind Rage. Ogres can be killed easily in most cases, and in other cases they will destroy enemies. When an Ogre goes into rage, Ranged Attacks eat him up. So pray he doesn't get raged from hitting him, or be sure to have Ranged men to take him out when he does rage.

Mar 14, 2010 21:26:44 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

And another quick thing what is the benefit of making a mage into a litch? this is another thing where you can only have 1 of these per game so just want to know what the innate bonuses are for doing this. didnt spend a whole lot of time play testing the lich so not arguing balence either way just want to know as an fyi whats the boost you get for turning a mage into a lich

Lich is far more powerful physically than a plain Necromancer. They can Life Steal and Liches can also reach Level 15. However, they are especially vulnerable to Life spells.

Mar 14, 2010 21:26:44 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

Would it be beneficial to hav3e a little faq that tells people the little innate bonuses and powers the legendaries have?

Not a bad idea.




Comparing the Legendary Knight to Legendary Creatures is like comparing creatures to Mages: they're not exactly the same.

The Legendary Knight starts at Level 6. Why? So you can Level him and so he doesn't start all the way at Level 1. Level 6 is high enough Level to rally any of Order's military units, right out of the box.

Would you rather Level a Paladin to Level 10, or would you wait til you could summon a Level 10 Legendary Knight? A Legendary Knight is a Warrior and Special Champion, who exceeds all other Champions in power. Level 15 too.

If you often let the auto-calc decide your battles without the proper party strength, you will always lose.

Auto-calc was re-done with the GS5R2 mod. Auto-calc looks at things like the size of your party, the highest and average value or all units for each stat: (Ranged) Attack, Armor, Level.

Your highest and averages are checked against the enemy.
- Your Ranged Attack or Attack, whichever is greater, versus their Armor.
- Your Armor versus their Ranged Attack or Attack, whichever is greater.
- Your Level versus their Level.

Remember, checking both highest party value and combined party averages on each check. So that's 6 total checks.

Party size will probably be the most important factor. It can severely diminish your party's "barter value", their effective worth and strength.


So compare a Legendary Knight at Level 15 to a Legendary Phoenix. Well, one can fly and the other cannot. One is ranged and the other is not. One is a champion and the other is not. One has the benefits of reduced spell durations because he's a special champion, and the other does not. One is protected against fatal damage from some spells, while the other is not.

The Legendary Knight can also wield Legendary Artifacts. Doesn't that make him Double Legendary then?

But then you must be thinking, if I'm an Arch Wizard and I summon the Legendary Knight, I can't get the Crusader Blade. Well, yeah, that's true. But he can use other Legendary weapons from Air, Fire, Water, or Death.

Yes, he can use Air or Fire Legendary warrior artifacts, but not at quite the same effectiveness as the respective warriors of both faiths.

What if you're a Legendary Knight and you have a Scroll of Lost Soul? Well shit, that's one unit instantly killed and out of the way. Only a Legendary Lich can do that, cuz he can cast spells!

What about a Scroll of Rust with a Scroll of Erosion? Reduce that opposing Legendary Creature's armor greatly.


A Legendary Knight is a Legendary "creature" that you can ADVENTURE with! He can gain levels and he can take the vow in the temple too.


I just don't think you're thinking about the possibilities of a Legendary Champion.

[solarr8]

"A Legendary Knight is a Legendary "creature" that you can ADVENTURE with! He can gain levels and he can take the vow in the temple too."

Really? Funny you should say that since in my game i just tried doing that with the knight only in my party and oops no go. I just summioned him fresh out of the temple too. Would not let me use the vow and what does that order buiding do again add 1 level?

Secondly. How long does it take a legendary knight ot reach level 15 from level 6. I don't know what lords of magic game your playing but in mine its beaten 10 times over before i get ANY unit (that actually has the ability) to 15. Thats with a standard size map not a huge one of course i know but regardless...

After the countless hours ive poured into play testing this game i seriously doubt youd disagree with me if you have spent as much time with order as i have.

You see the flaw in your reasoning is this:

Car salesman Bob wants to sell me (insert street legal super car here) under the premise that it can go a top speed of 200 miles per hour.

How often am i actually going to be able to go that fast?

Can i make my point any clearer?

Potential doesnt mean anything really. By the time you actually get a chance to summon the damn thing your armies are powerful enough from their own adventures that adding a level 6 of anything to them even if it was a level 6 ice drake wouldn't make a damn difference for that party.

Be honest with me. Have you even played order? Seriously. To get ANY unit to level 15 from level 6? ESPECIALLY after all the buildings around your city have been chewed up by your starting party?

And you cant send the knight in alone for any good exp cause the only buildings left around you are too high for it so you HAVE to make it share exp with a party.

And if im playing and im already THAT far into the game im taking over other peoples temples at that point.

Dude listen to reason. Theres no way in hell that any sane person who knows first hand how ungodly long it takes to level a champion hero or legendary knight from level 6 to level 15 (even level 10) (In my test i had to clear out EVERYTHING in my home area with ONLY the knight in my party to ensure he was getting the most exp from every battle)

That was almost AN HOUR of gameplay to do this test (because autocalc makes you loose every time i had to manually fight)

Theres just no way. No way that you have actually played out order because if you have you would know exactly where im coming from.

Dude i love what you do with this game but gods sake man all this theory you have you got to experience the scenarios to understand the flaws.

It's just not fun having to nurse a legendary knight. If he started out the gates at atleast level 10 who cares if you milked your other units to just wait for him. And damn man at level 10 he actually has a chance of not dying due to an unlucky string of hits but at level 6 with only 30 life hes a sitting duck.

Honestly play order as i have and ask yourself 1 question. As it stands is the play time investment worth what you get out of it compared to any other race and even not compared to any other race.

Honestly tell me if its fun. Because where i sit order is the least fun class to play and all because you chopped the dick off the legendary creature.

PLAY AN ENTIRE GAME WITH ORDER and then tell me how viable the potential really is

And if you have then tell me what im doing wrong.

[Boaster]

Obviously you're angered by my response, for whatever reason.

I've been modding the game since late 2006 and played the game longer since then. I'm quite confident in what I was saying.

In terms of viability, I would say that the Legendary Knight is VERY viable. He's like having a second Lord. If you can't handle having a second Lord, that's too bad.

I'm not going to give a player a second Lord that starts 2/3 of the way from completion. How fast you liberate your great temple and manage your economy is one thing. Dogging on the legendary knight is another.

I would wager that I could get the Legendary Knight before turn 45 and to level 15 by turn 60.

And I bet my Legendary Knight could take on any Legendary Creature and win, with proper preparation.



Why don't you mod the game for... going on four years... and tell me how wrong I am about the Legendary Knight.


I will play an Arch Wizard and I will get my Legendary Knight up to those specifications I described, if not better.


Why don't you ask me how often I've played the other faiths too? Seems perfectly reasonable. You attack me with the presumption that I just throw whatever I want onto Order and I go around and diligently work on other faiths and making them formidable, all while making some sense and managing to balance things as well.


I would say having basically TWO Lords is better than having ONE Lord and a Legendary Creature.

[solarr8]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-Vna1ba5o

Ok. So how about i do the same then? Who ever suceeds in this (if anyone actually does) can tell the other person how it's actually suppose to happen. I think we need paramaters tho. Would it be fair to say the only true way to test this would be on hard mode? Is that the mode you consider to be truest towards your intended diffilculty for the game with your mods included? And what about the map? Any special rules? For example you cant conqour other faiths? How should we make this as much a black and white dollars to dollars test as possible. I think since you're the designer you should pick the variables.

By the way as soon as i get into summer i would love to start doing some multiplayer game testing with you. mull it over a bit and tell me what you think.

[Boaster]

I managed to get the job done by turn 55. Images are not in sequential order, unfortunately.

[solarr8]

oh you play more like the a i you pair specials together and leave the lesser units behind. Thats actually more like the way the a.i. does things. You know that strategy slipped by me. I dunno man i did that last night except i was at 67 turns before it happened.

[Boaster]

I got it done 5 turns before I said I would in regards to getting the Legendary Knight to Level 15. Instead of taking my time, like I want to do while playing LOMSE, I instead forced myself to be more active.

I merely wanted to prove it could be done. The Legendary Knight is quite strong, and can become stronger with artifacts.

Ring of Healing and Amulet of Indecision, both increase health by 10. Three Heal charges and one Hand of Fate charge. Luck bonus of 5, and I believe +3 armor from each artifact.

With those stats as seen in the last screen shot, he has a 5 + 2 + 1 = 8% chance of inflicting a Deadly Strike, doubling the attack damage. 5 from Luck, 2 from Strength, 1 is the base chance.


If I could some day figure out how to edit the EXE file, I would remove the limitation of only allowing Mages to cast spells. The Legendary Knight and Crusader would have access to spells, but since their Wisdom yields them little mana, they wouldn't easily be able to cast big ticket offensive spells.

[solarr8]

Hmm i see your point.

How about a little wimpy sword artifact to go with the little wimpy shield artifact that grants an ability for the pally to have 1 per turn self cast only richeous cause. Attach this ability to the little wimpy sword artifact so that in the begining the pally can get a boost but as time goes on the artifact can be replaced with something better. That way it doesnt suck so bad having to hope you just happen to find an artifact thats actually decent for him and that he can actually use.

Some games ive played and ive gotten great artifacts its just that they were for mages or thiefs or Kinda for the order warrior but not the best faith to use it with.

Its very gentle change and its balenced by the fact that they have to remove the artifact if they haave 2 that are better. I think its ok to remove the potion the wisdom bonus isnt that great anyway.

Think of it as being no different then if a mage was in the party casting it it just makes the knight less gimp not having to rely on there being a mage in the party to give him richeous cause. Makes him more independant as a legendary "adventurer" as you say he is.

This small addition to him certainly wont be overpowering its just a means to make him a little more independant like the other legendaries are. Water doesnt count cause they can summion more than 1 so there guys are scaled down so

Ya

[Boaster]

Considering that no unit in the game is Trained/Summoned with an artifact makes the Sacred Knight pretty unique. He comes with a Unique Shield and a Potion of Wisdom. Albeit the Potion of Wisdom doesn't do a lot for him, it's just a little easter egg I suppose you could call it.

Don't forget that he can also wield scrolls, as all champions can.

[solarr8]

ya thats true but it really takes a long time to get any decent artifacts. almost all the artifacts you get during the early stages are nothing more than trinkets. a legendary knight deserves atleast a little boost. To make someone have to wait till they get a really good artifact for the knight to be exiting is boring. do you want lom to be like chess or something more fun? The pacing is slow enough trust me and giving him a 2nd artifact wouldnt be game breaking. And the shield of quality by iself is just a toy. its not that good. why dont you spawn him with a sword of quality to match his shield and get rid of that stupid potion. Or leave it in if you want to "easter egg" that bad. that way he can force march himself as well as get a slight attack boost


got an idea how bout you take the sword of quality make it not findable in game just like the shield he uses is and make it only useful to the knight like the shield is. just make it an exact copy of the shield except making the (offensive bonus) counterpart.

Ive got to know why your such a cheap ass when it comes to giving the hallmark of orders greatness 1 tiny boost to make him more fun to play. This whole idea is about fun.

[Boaster]

Mar 15, 2010 20:23:24 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

ya thats true but it really takes a long time to get any decent artifacts. almost all the artifacts you get during the early stages are nothing more than trinkets. a legendary knight deserves atleast a little boost. To make someone have to wait till they get a really good artifact for the knight to be exiting is boring. do you want lom to be like chess or something more fun? The pacing is slow enough trust me and giving him a 2nd artifact wouldnt be game breaking. And the shield of quality by iself is just a toy. its not that good. why dont you spawn him with a sword of quality to match his shield and get rid of that stupid potion. Or leave it in if you want to "easter egg" that bad. that way he can force march himself as well as get a slight attack boost


got an idea how bout you take the sword of quality make it not findable in game just like the shield he uses is and make it only useful to the knight like the shield is. just make it an exact copy of the shield except making the (offensive bonus) counterpart.

Ive got to know why your such a cheap ass when it comes to giving the hallmark of orders greatness 1 tiny boost to make him more fun to play. This whole idea is about fun.

Heheh, cheap ass. Made me chuckle.

Imagine playing a game without any dungeons. You would have your starting artifact, then the artifact and scroll you get from your Great Temple, and then there's the artifacts the other faiths start with.

That's an excellent situation where Shield of Quality is real good.

I have a map that's got no encounters, and it's called CloseEncounters. It's either a 32x32 or 64x64 map, I think 64x64. I've played this map and it's a real challenge. And to have a unit like that start at Level 6 and with two artifacts, man that's great to have.

The Sacred Knight is a Special Champion, and can reach level 15, can wield two artifacts.

I'm done.

[solarr8]

every situation you argue with is an atypical uncommon situation. You don't ever address typical gameplay. I guess what bothers me the most is you give the illusion that your actually care about and consider the imput of other people. i could give you the best reason in the world for adding the most minorly benificial change for 1 race and you would throw it away. Havnt you ever wondered why so many people are asking you all these technical questions on the boards all the time. Its because there wanting to know whats going on with the mod so they can make the adjustments themselves that your unwilling to do. and thats what im going to have to do. I bet mine will be more popular becuase im taking an approach that cant fail. The great game arcitect Sid Meyer said that if you have to take a tiny bit of realisim out of a game to make it fun than do it. And noone makes better games than sid meyer

[Boaster]

Mar 15, 2010 22:38:04 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

every situation you argue with is an atypical uncommon situation. You don't ever address typical gameplay. I guess what bothers me the most is you give the illusion that your actually care about and consider the imput of other people. i could give you the best reason in the world for adding the most minorly benificial change for 1 race and you would throw it away. Havnt you ever wondered why so many people are asking you all these technical questions on the boards all the time. Its because there wanting to know whats going on with the mod so they can make the adjustments themselves that your unwilling to do. and thats what im going to have to do. I bet mine will be more popular becuase im taking an approach that cant fail. The great game arcitect Sid Meyer said that if you have to take a tiny bit of realisim out of a game to make it fun than do it. And noone makes better games than sid meyer

Sorry. We simply don't agree. If that offends you, I can offer you nothing.

[Boaster]

Another thing worth mentioning about the Potion of Wisdom, is that after you use it, the experience bonus from Wisdom does help. So until you do find artifacts worth using, you could double up on two +6 Potions of Wisdom.

Level 3 Wizards Towers let you purchase up to +6 on charges, whereas villages won't open up the higher charged potions until turn 70.

[quentinak]

"ya thats true but it really takes a long time to get any decent artifacts"

Do you specifically mean 11lvl artifacts?

Because it's not too hard to get strong enough for lvl 7 or even 10 dungeons by middle game. Use the strategy of leaving some of the weaker units behind. Take a couple of wizards with you to knock out the enemy spell casters as quickly as possible. Soften up some of tougher creatures asap as well, if you have extra mana potions. Then hide your wizards if you can, or even let them run if possible if you still want to keep them. Then, let your fighting champion mop up the rest of the enemies using the Ctrl-D (Parrying) function. It might take you a couple of tries before you can win but I got good artifacts pretty quickly that way.

When it comes to 11lvl artifacts, they're a little harder. Again, I just try to take out the spell casters asap. I don't usually try to take on lvl 11s until I have researched Justice. With 2 wizards, I can wipe out most of the enemies before they can touch me

[johngalt137]

Some observations for solarr88:


1. Just because a unit isn't best used the way you'd like to see it used doesn't make it unbalanced.

2. All faith's units don't have to have identical purposes for the game to be balanced. (The legendary knight does not have to fill the same role for order that Fafnir does for Fire, or that the hydra does for chaos) The important issue when comparing one faith to another is: "Are these two faiths balanced?" That is to say: does a order have about a 50% chance of beating every other faith. This is because each faith has several differences that set them apart. You wouldn't compare Life's archers to Chaos's archers, then claim that chaos's archers need a buff. That wouldn't make any sense. When trying to balance individual units like the Legendary knight the question isn't, "Is this unit balanced against the Lich", they fill different roles, you are comparing apples and oranges. The important question is "As a player is it better for me to spend my resources on the Legendary knight rather than a different order unit."

In game design this is achieved by ensuring that each unit fulfills a different role or the same role in a different way. It can also be achieved by putting caps on the number of times you can buy a unit. All of your ideas in terms of balance do absolutely nothing for this. Making the legendary knight start off with more XP does nothing to make him more different from the regular knight champion.

You seem to think that Order sucks compared to other faiths, this just doesn't seem to be the case. The faith's in the GS5R2 mod seem to be relatively balanced. Certainly more balanced than they were in the original LOMSE. The way you tell if a faith is balanced is to get some multiplayer data (if you want to balance it for multiplayer). Or play 10 - 20 games as each faith to the end, while keeping good notes, for whichever gametype you'd like to balance it for.

As a side point the GS5R2 mod probably ought to concentrate balance on the multiplayer game as the single player game can just be modded by individuals that would like to see it changed anyway.

Also, if you make this tweak to the knight you are thinking about making on the GS5R2, that won't make it your mod even if a bunch of people download it. Unless you are modding the unmodded game the lions share of the work will still be Boasters, and if you expect for anyone to take you seriously you better carefully acknowledge that fact.

Additionally, saying that your tweak will make the game more fun is subjective. I don't think it does. Claiming that it will doesn't make you Sid Meier. Sid Meier probably plays more than two games of a pre-release version before declaring it unbalanced, and probably gets data from more than two games before releasing a patch.

Play some online games with order and get some decent data before complaining that Boaster isn't listening to you. I'm glad that he just doesn't cave to every single person that walks by claiming that based on their two games with the mod their pet faith is too weak. That's no way to balance a game.

[Boaster]

Mar 29, 2010 13:52:53 GMT -6 johngalt137 said:

Some observations for solarr88:


1. Just because a unit isn't best used the way you'd like to see it used doesn't make it unbalanced.

2. All faith's units don't have to have identical purposes for the game to be balanced. (The legendary knight does not have to fill the same role for order that Fafnir does for Fire, or that the hydra does for chaos) The important issue when comparing one faith to another is: "Are these two faiths balanced?" That is to say: does a order have about a 50% chance of beating every other faith. This is because each faith has several differences that set them apart. You wouldn't compare Life's archers to Chaos's archers, then claim that chaos's archers need a buff. That wouldn't make any sense. When trying to balance individual units like the Legendary knight the question isn't, "Is this unit balanced against the Lich", they fill different roles, you are comparing apples and oranges. The important question is "As a player is it better for me to spend my resources on the Legendary knight rather than a different order unit."

In game design this is achieved by ensuring that each unit fulfills a different role or the same role in a different way. It can also be achieved by putting caps on the number of times you can buy a unit. All of your ideas in terms of balance do absolutely nothing for this. Making the legendary knight start off with more XP does nothing to make him more different from the regular knight champion.

You seem to think that Order sucks compared to other faiths, this just doesn't seem to be the case. The faith's in the GS5R2 mod seem to be relatively balanced. Certainly more balanced than they were in the original LOMSE. The way you tell if a faith is balanced is to get some multiplayer data (if you want to balance it for multiplayer). Or play 10 - 20 games as each faith to the end, while keeping good notes, for whichever gametype you'd like to balance it for.

As a side point the GS5R2 mod probably ought to concentrate balance on the multiplayer game as the single player game can just be modded by individuals that would like to see it changed anyway.

Also, if you make this tweak to the knight you are thinking about making on the GS5R2, that won't make it your mod even if a bunch of people download it. Unless you are modding the unmodded game the lions share of the work will still be Boasters, and if you expect for anyone to take you seriously you better carefully acknowledge that fact.

Additionally, saying that your tweak will make the game more fun is subjective. I don't think it does. Claiming that it will doesn't make you Sid Meier. Sid Meier probably plays more than two games of a pre-release version before declaring it unbalanced, and probably gets data from more than two games before releasing a patch.

Play some online games with order and get some decent data before complaining that Boaster isn't listening to you. I'm glad that he just doesn't cave to every single person that walks by claiming that based on their two games with the mod their pet faith is too weak. That's no way to balance a game.

You make a stong case, and you put it better than I did johngalt.

There are certain reasons for which I have made tweaks to certain units and having their stats the way they are. I cluster similar units together and based on their appearance and purpose, I balance them together. However, some units to cross over into the same territory as other units. Kind of a blend between two categories, where the unit is being shared in two categories.


Take the Warrior Lords for example.

Knight Group: Crusader, Executioner, Amazon Princess.
Strong Group: Conqueror, Dwarven Warlord, Storm Warlord, Fire Warlord.
Giant Group: Storm Warlord, Fire Warlord.
Light Group: Elven Patriarch, Amazon Princess.
Elf Group: Elven Patriarch, Executioner.
Shield Group: Crusader, Executioner, Amazon Princess, Conqueror.

Of all groups, the Dwarven Warlord is designed to be as the most sturdy, and most balance in terms of offense and defense. High HP, High Attack, High Armor. While the Dwarven Warlord does not LEAD in ALL CATEGORIES, he is the most powerful Warlord on account of Attack, Armor and HP supplemented by Melee Resistance. Among all Warriors vs Warriors, he is the best.

Within each group the units are balanced between each other, but not balanced all across the board stat for stat.

After establishing the overall Leading Warrior, based on characteristics of other Warriors is where we branch off.

Highest Attack: Fire Warlord (40).
Highest Armor: Dwarven Warlord (30).
Highest Health: Fire Warlord (70).
Highest Melee Resistance: Dwarven Warlord (50).
Highest Missile Resistance: Tied, all Shield Group (25).
Fastest Combat Speed: Elven Patriarch (3).
Fastest Attack Speed: Elven Patriarch (7), on account of frames of animation; otherwise tied with Fire Warlord, Storm Warlord.
Best Overall Health Recovery: Elven Patriarch (8/8/8).
Best Inside Bonus Health Recovery: Tied (8): Elven Patriarch, Dwarven Warlord.
Best Outside Health Recovery: Fire Warlord (10).
Best Moved Health Recovery: Conqueror (10).
Best Movement: Storm Warlord.
Best Sight Radius: Tied (8): Storm Warlord, Fire Warlord, Elven Patriarch, Executioner
Highest Avg. Magic Resistance: Conqueror (25).
Best Stealth Factor: Tied (8): Elven Patriarch, Executioner.

Notice how the Crusader doesn't have any bests. Does that make the Crusader worse than the Elven Patriarch? Nope. If you go by a stat by stat break down, the Elven Patriarch would lose to the Crusader in one-on-one combat.


It doesn't require that a unit have a BEST of something to be any good.


From there, I went on to compare the Sacred Knight to the Crusader. The Sacred Knight is a Special Champion, not a Lord. Special Champions have different experience requirements per Level.

[solarr8]

johngalt137

I don't care to go ever all of your post to separate the meat from the fat so i'll just make a few short points.

1.
For the knight to be balenced he needs to come out of the gate at the same level as the other legendaries that can only be summioned once. Any multiplayer game that has 2 people of equal skill will prove that even if they both get the summon at the same time the one not playing order will always win. Noone has of yet provided justification for this. To have a legendary creature that can only be summioned once per game and be able to get raped by another legendary is just pointless.

Thats where the whole idea of balence comes into play.

Take 2 players on multiplayer. They both are of equal skill. One player gets to summon a legendary at level 15. He immediatly heads for the knight which is summioned at level 6. Is the fight going to be even close? no it's not

So you tell me how in a multiplayer game order is suppose to be able to counter another legendary creature in combat.

I dont care what artifacts the knight has or what army is with him it doesnt matter. I spend over 24 hours testing the lengh of time it takes for the knight to catch up in power to the other legendaries as well as testing individual legendaries and ive seen how the knight performes. The fafnir the ice drake hell any of them can take out level 10 areas on their own. The worm dies but just barely. The spiders died quick but its ok cause you can always get more. The lich is about as weak as the knight but atleast its not a fighter and has spells to slow another legendary down.

Whole point is very simple.

Me vs x. x plays order. We both get to summon at about the same time.

If i decide i want to beeline towards the kight player x is royally fucked and theres not a damn thing he can do about it. I will kill his knight eliminating the possibility for him to get strong and since you only get once per game its over. All of the arguments about the artifacts and the potential are irrelivent points. But the knight can etc etc etc is an irrelivent point.

The fafnir CAN NOW
The drake CAN NOW
The worm CAN NOW
The knight CAN'T NOW

The knight has to manage to stay alive long enough to realize his potential and in a multiplayer game where you have an aggressive opponent the knight is not going to have the time he needs to level up to the point of being even and collect artifacts good enough that he will have any reasonable chance of countering an attack.

When all else is equal the concept of having to level a legendary that once dead is dead is crazy.

Imagine yourself as order. Imagine needing to be roughly 25 turns ahead of the other player to have any chance of defending yourself from his legendary.

Why not make them all start out at level 6 or level 10. I dunno.

But eventually when people fail to address my points and go well "i wont answer that but did you also know"

It's like me trying to buy a car and the only thing shitty about it is the engine and boaster goes well stop thinking about the engine consider the potential of the engine after you spend 5 grand on aftermarket performance parts. Well i don't have to do that if i buy the car down the street as it already comes with a good engine. Which car are you going to buy? the one with "potential" or the one thats already great?

Put yorself in orders shoes on a multiplayer game. How can you keep your legendary safe from an aggressive opponent long enogh for it to be able to stand on its own. Keep in mind that if im the opponent the second i get to summon my legendary its over for the knight. A percition strike againsted orders legendary will cripple any chance order has to win a game as long as the other faith has a legendary.

I'm not counting someone who decides to leave his lord undefended because thats a win because of poor strategy vs a win because my legendary out of the gate is stronger.

So ya it be kind of nice if all other things could be put aside to address the issue of how to keep the knight safe from my fafnir or my worm or my drake etc etc etc while you take 25 turns to nurse him.
I've already by that time taken my legendary who is already strong and decimated you. Little baby lancealot doesnt have the time to grow up. My legendary starts out grown up and if i beeline to lancealot hes going down and it's game over.

All of the arguments about potential are null and void because im not giving you the time as your opponent for you to take the time you're going to need to gather that potential. Could i possibly make my point any clearer?

Also. So what if hes a champion and the other legendary isnt. The label of champion isnt going to save him from me. The fact that he cant get a fatal spell effect doesnt matter either cause what damage i do do to him will weaken him enough anyway so that finishing the job wont be hard.

Order vs chaos all things being equal each army should die at the same time. It would be a stalemate. Now obviously this isnt possible but the idea is to get it as close to that as possible.

but putting everything aside id appreate it those who think differently address the issue at hand.

So ill restate the issue once more to make it clear

I am (insert faith here) you are order. We are of equal play skill. We both manage to summon at the same time.

If i immediatly beeline for your once per game knight how do you counter me. (how is it even a close fight) Suppose i kill your knight doesn't that cripple your chance of beating me? Can al the kings horses and all the kings men take down my legendary after the funeral?

Thats why i say playtest in multiplayer. All will become clear. And who ever is order will realize that no matter how good of a player they are there bringing a knife to a gun fight and no matter how well they strategize they will fall.

Lets see how much you think its nice to play order after baby lancealot doesnt get a chance to grow up.

[johngalt137]

Mar 29, 2010 17:44:59 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

So ill restate the issue once more to make it clear

I am (insert faith here) you are order. We are of equal play skill. We both manage to summon at the same time.

If i immediatly beeline for your once per game knight how do you counter me. (how is it even a close fight) Suppose i kill your knight doesn't that cripple your chance of beating me? Can al the kings horses and all the kings men take down my legendary after the funeral?

Thats why i say playtest in multiplayer. All will become clear. And who ever is order will realize that no matter how good of a player they are there bringing a knife to a gun fight and no matter how well they strategize they will fall.

Lets see how much you think its nice to play order after baby lancealot doesnt get a chance to grow up.

This seems to be an accurate summary of your post. Now here is the question. Have you actually had this happen to you in a real multiplayer game? Who was it with? This frankly seems like a dumb strategy. If I'm fire, I'm going to send Fafnir alone into hostile territory on the assumption that Order is going to let me fight Lancelot one on one!? Boaster says he can get his Legendary knight up to level 15 in 5 turns. How many turns does it take to walk Fafnir over to Orderland? How many turns will you waste finding Lancelot when you get there? Praying that Order decided to leave him alone with no reinforcements. You better hope to hell that Order doesn't have a scroll of lost soul, because if Lancelot is holding one when Fafnir attacks him, Fire is in for a hilarious surprise. (Assuming I'm not under a misapprehension of how the spell works). If you're Order and your plan is to run Lancelot right down Fafnir's throat you are doing it wrong. If you actually have 10-20 games of Multiplayer Order under your belt against each faith then by all means, pull out the data, show me I'm wrong. Perhaps Order is better at getting their legendary creature earlier than Fire or Chaos is. Maybe their better early game, maybe their better late game. Maybe your goal should be to delay the enemy long enough to pull out your level 15 Lancelot and do two simultaneous attacks, Lancelot leading one and your Leader leading the other. Can any party beat a party with a level 15 Lancelot and a level 15 Archmage?

You don't balance for situations that never come up. Level 6 Lancelot dying to level 15 Fafnir isn't an example of imbalance, but an example of poor play. You balance FAITHS against each other on the basis of real games.

For example, if you've ever played starcraft, you are basically saying, that because a Battlecruiser can kill an Ultralisk Zerg is worse than Terran, and the Ultralisk should be rebalanced to have a 50-50 chance of beating a Battlecruiser. This homogenizes the game, and is terrible design philosophy. If you instead play Warcraft 3 replace Battlecruiser with chimera, Ultralisk with Tauren, Zerg => Orc and Terran => nightelf. If you don't play either of those games, maybe someone else can help me out.

The bottom line is, if you allow these one on one fights to happen when you don't have a distinct advantage you are a bad Order player.

That all being said, you could possibly be correct. I'm not trying to say that it is impossible that the game as is, isn't balanced. But based on the information you've given, you have no concrete evidence that it is or isn't balanced. Every Thursday from here on out I plan on hosting an online LOMSE game for the purpose of getting some good data to balance the game with. If there is enough interest we might talk about the possibility of getting a ladder or something going, then we'd get some really detailed statistics. If you've played the 3.5 version of D&D you'll see what I mean. When the game originally came out Monks were considered to be the strongest class. Today that idea is openly laughed at. This is because people simply looked at the statistics or put the character into simplistic 1 on one battles. Not considering what actually happens in real games. When the community started actually playing the game they found that monks were among the worst. So lets play the game, get some data and prove me wrong. But, no one in their right mind would rebalance their mod on the basis that you messed around for a day with the legendary knight.