Legendaries in general.

[solarr8]

After playing the game for quite some time i have discovered multiple ways to very easily quickly and efficiently wipe out legendary creatures. (lost soul for example) With most of these only being able to be summoned once per game it feels like i as a player work extremely hard to do all of what is necessary in a game to summon a creature (allegedly) of great power and to have the restriction of only being able to summon it once per game and to then see that creature so easily slain by a few tricks and traps makes me feel cheated.

I put all this hard work and investment summoning (and in certain cases) leveling these creatures and then zap 1 little tiny fly in the game (by comparison ) weather it be a spell or some type of unit leads to death

Something so rare to get and so irreplaceable and then poof 1 tiny fly attacks it and its gone.

What goes through a modders mind when he decides to make something thats so rare and yet so incredibly fragile in a so easily relocatable and producible bad experience.
so harsh and unforgiving

Maybe he thinks legendary creatures arnt that big a deal. To see these guys die so easily with minimal effort by an opposing faction just seems like they outta be called party favors or trinkets but certainly not legendary creatures.

What makes a creature "Legendary" lets start with that.

Then we can move onto what circumstances are needed to slay it and how easy it is to make those circumstances happen.



heres the save file for this one. Walk into the fire capital city and let the mage take a few shots at you. i like to use the leaches? i think it is spell to get rid of everyone but the mage. Then i just let the mage spit out bolts.

[solarr8]

heres the file

keep in mind its a level 9 mage vs a level 15 lich thats a difference of 6 levels. No way to possibly save this legendary creature?

Attachments:

[quentinak]

You have a point there. That's why Death is an aggravatingly tough opponent. Perhaps there should be a way that the Legendary creature can run from away from the Lost Soul spell by escaping from the battle?

[johngalt137]

These aren't supposed to be invincible creatures, they are supposed to be legendary creatures. That doesn't mean that they should have no weaknesses. Lost soul is balanced by the fact that it is Death's capstone spell. It takes a lot of research to get to that point of the game. If that means that you have to attack necromancers with mages of your own to make sure that their good and dead before you have fafnir curbstomp the rest of their army, that's what it means.
A lot of your posts just seem to be that "I'd rather mod the game than use any sort of strategy". Sometimes paper just beats rock. Just because you want rock to never lose doesn't mean that it should. Just because you are limited to one rock in a game of nearly all scissors, doesn't mean that rock is bad. I mean you've played with legendary creatures before, right? Don't tell me they suck because one spell represents a significant threat to them. Don't tell me they're not legendary because necromancers happen to have power over life and death.

[solarr8]

Actually lost soul was just an example. I am looking at the bolt spells in particular. A level 9 mage of fire or life has easily enough mana to keep sniping bolt spells untill the lich dies.

The bolt spells are fast recast easy to fire they dont miss ever and theyre cheap. The lich will not even be able to escape in time ive tried it and with full armies on the battlefiels (which is a hell of alot more typical than my testing situations where i use codes and then run legendaries into dungens.

I mearly mean to point out the most importand fact that there are what i consider very easy ways to kill them.

I dont think that there should be any situations where a player has no choice but to loose a creature he/she can only summon once just because the opponent sneaks an inferior level mage in and starts sniping it. Perhaps if the spell was changed so that it did not stop one from moving but even so the bolt spell casts so fast still

I dont aim to make legendaries invincable my point is just that something so precious that you're only allowed 1 per game and that something can be knocked out with a steady stream of bolt spells just seems unfair.

I don't mind a battle penilty of loosing a champion the player can always make more but to have a replicatable way of wiping out a legendary or a lord with just 1 tiny barrage of inescapable low level spells cast by a standard mage 6 levels below the lich?

Can anyone honestly say that if that happened to them they wouldn't feel as if they have been cheated of a fair game?

I dont want legendaries to be unstoppible but something that you can only have 1 of ever outta be pretty damn muscular in my opinion.

[Boaster]

Mar 30, 2010 10:08:01 GMT -6 johngalt137 said:

These aren't supposed to be invincible creatures, they are supposed to be legendary creatures. That doesn't mean that they should have no weaknesses. Lost soul is balanced by the fact that it is Death's capstone spell. It takes a lot of research to get to that point of the game. If that means that you have to attack necromancers with mages of your own to make sure that their good and dead before you have fafnir curbstomp the rest of their army, that's what it means.
A lot of your posts just seem to be that "I'd rather mod the game than use any sort of strategy". Sometimes paper just beats rock. Just because you want rock to never lose doesn't mean that it should. Just because you are limited to one rock in a game of nearly all scissors, doesn't mean that rock is bad. I mean you've played with legendary creatures before, right? Don't tell me they suck because one spell represents a significant threat to them. Don't tell me they're not legendary because necromancers happen to have power over life and death.

He says it quite better than I do.

Resistance Potions can be bought by anyone who travels to a village.

Resistance Potions both set your minimum resistance to all magic by the charges you invested into it (all resistances equal NO LESS THAN 20) and are otherwise increased by the number of charges.

Two 20 charge Resistance Potions can help you big time.

Since you're worried about the negative resistance of your Lich, two potions will set your minimum resistances to all magic to 40%! -50% Life/Fire Resistance? Gulp, no more! You now have 20%! Gulp! 40%!

I apologize that the Potion does not describe it raises all magic resistances to X, if lower than X.

[solarr8]

What if all the neighboring towns are taken or destroyed in a game and for what ever reason you cant walk in and buy a potion or 2? is it tough luck? Should these potions be available in the mage towers?
Could there be mroe villages to make up for this?
There are alot of irreversible dead end scenarios that if a player gets him/her self into its curtains. Is it your intention to have the risk of death be this high if the player does not aggressivly secure and maintain defenses for a village?

Idea: Can you make villages rebuildable for a large penalty of resources?

That way you can continue to make them a niche assessory that has the very spacific strategic (good for primarily 1 purpose) items but at the same time the penalty is not so severe if these villages are lost or unable to be accessed

Maybe make the villages not destroyable if they cannot be rebuilt?

(and if this is already addressed sorry) Ive spend hours already play testing and time is precious.

And for johngalt137

Alot of you're theories are well and good but keep in mind i have spent countless hours putting these creatures in scenarios in the game. I would encourage you to do the same that way you can actually experience what i am instead of just doing thought experiments in your head.

[Boaster]

Villages cannot be destroyed.

Also, I am not going to extrapolate on your scenario situations.

Solve your own problems. Instead of just asking questions, look for answers. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it is not intended to be as such. But I cannot answer all of your problems, nor do I feel it is necessary to do so.

With all the options and variables in play, you have to make the best decisions you can.

[solarr8]

Can you atleast answer my questions? it's not like you're running for office. You make use of the no comment responce an aweful lot. Why? Is it that hard to say yes or no?

the question again for you:

Is it your intention to have the risk of death be this high if the player does not aggressivly secure and maintain defenses for a village?

If we don't know what you're thinking then how are we suppose to see your perspective?

[Boaster]

Mar 30, 2010 11:24:02 GMT -6 solarr8 said:

Can you atleast answer my questions? it's not like you're running for office. You make use of the no comment responce an aweful lot. Why? Is it that hard to say yes or no?

the question again for you:

Is it your intention to have the risk of death be this high if the player does not aggressivly secure and maintain defenses for a village?

If we don't know what you're thinking then how are we suppose to see your perspective?

Your question cannot be a simple yes or no, because it is not that simple a question.

Risk of Death for the Lich is based on your use.

Is it my intention? No.

Risk of Death lies in your ability to see a problem, and make adjustments for it.

I certainly wouldn't bring into combat a unit weak against certain magic if I knew it would be a target.

I would not, without preparation, bring my Lich into combat against a Fire Mage or Life Mage, knowing that he is vulnerable to those magic types.

I would not allow, without preparation, my enemy to engage in combat with me. In fact, I would take preventative measures to counter his advances as much as I could to prevent the risk of a vulnerable and indisposable unit from being killed.

It is within your best interest to adapt and make adjustments where necessary.

If you don't have a village, seek other alternatives.


The Negative Life and Fire Resistance is designed to be a weakness so that the unit is NOT an all powerful, unstoppable, spell wielding menace.

In fact, all Legendary Creatures have a huge vulnerability to magics of the opposite faith, even vulnerabilities to magics of other faiths (i.e. Ice Drake being vulnerable to Fire). Those Creatures are not capable of wielding or using Potions of Resistance.

Shamblers have -75% Fire Resistance while Golems have 75% Fire Resistance. Why? They're both Earth units, but my justification for making their resistances different are prejudice based on their appearance.

[solarr8]

wow. im about blown away. that was the most understanble thing i've ever understood you say on the forums. Keep talking like that and we might actually start to understand eachother. I'll be thinking about that in future testing. Eventually im gonna get ot the point where i have to get some volunteers to play multiplayer tho. The thing is im not so much interested in playing againsed someone as i am analizing the faiths with them

[By the way] in my save game i conqured a village but am unable to see the resistance potions. Any insight on this?

[johngalt137]

I think that, it is probably a good idea to find some people to playtest with. You can only go so far playing the game on your own, and I imagine that the setups for the tests get dreadfully dull. When you have another human sitting across from you its easier to see which sort of things beat face.