Creatures: Do they have souls?

[Boaster]

I argue that Non-Legendary Creature units do not have souls. Why do I think this? Because they do not require followers to produce. I would also like to cite a piece of text from the Gnomish (Earth) Mage Tower on Golems:

"Fashioned lovingly of the hardest rock by the most skilled Dwarven sculptors, then animated by the magic of Gnomes, Earth minions are slow, but inexorable and nearly impossible to destroy."

Golems, creatures that do not require followers to produce, are fashioned from rock. Note, you will also see that they are "animated by the magic of Gnomes." When something is animated, it is given the mechanics to move by means of magic. Also, Golems have no wisdom.

Vampires do not have souls, however, they are undead (which means not dead, and not living) entities. They also do not require followers to produce.

Spirit Warriors... you might think that Spirit Warriors have souls, which they do. However, they are purely a soul suited in the greatest of armor. Since the texts of the Great Temple admit that these units have souls, they were also already dead.

"The mages of Order can summon the souls of their deceased, but unlike the minions of Death, Order spirits are good and pure. These holy warriors of ages past come willingly when called, even to die again for the oath that ruled their lives."

Since the Spirit Warrior has already been deceased, or dead, their existance is not garanteed (no one's existance is anyways). But the point that I make is that if they can be brought to life, the process can be reversed.


But regardless of reasoning, the spell I have created for the Life Faith, Slay Living will continue to function as is: Instantly killing non-creature units with a level less than the caster, and otherwise hurting the creature units based on the caster's level.

[lAncien]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that Life shouldn't have access to fatal magic. I like Ray of Hope, and Spirit Arrow has always been one of the most powerful spells for its cost. Also, since you clarified the spell effects, I have no objections to its actual function or calculation.

My concern was just in the philosophical construction of the spell. The Necromancer spell book is full of discussion of manipulation or perversion of "life force" to cause destruction, so a similar description in a Life spellbook bothered me a little.

The distinction between having souls based on being a "follower" didn't really get me. It seems like a clever connection at first, but some small flaws in the original game design cause it to break down. If animals and monsters are deemed not to have souls (a common decision, although not one I agree with), it mostly makes sense. The problem comes in that the distinction between animals, monsters, and people is not maintained in the original game design.

Eagles are animals, but cost followers. Most other animals do not cost followers. So do animals have souls, or not?
Earth Giants do not cost followers, but Fire and Air Giants do. So do giants have souls or not?
Shades only cost followers if raised from your own troops, but shades from the mage tower are described as the souls of necromancers. The Lich costs a follower, because a necromancer is turned into the Lich (soul and body both).
Dryads, who are just as humanoid as Elves, don't cost followers. Do non-humans have souls, or not?

The question of who has a soul is a very sticky one, especially in a world with multiple humanoid and semi-humanoid races, and with intelligent animals. I always assumed that the question of whether someone cost followers or not depended only on whether they were at least nominally residents of a city or village, or whether they lived only in the wild and were merely summoned to the mage tower by a calling spell.

On the other hand, the spell-book entry is not a statement of truth, but of opinion. It is certainly reasonable that with research, an enchantress would be able to cause death or damage in the way you describe (Medical doctors know how to poison people, but take an oath not to). Also, elves have been shown to be notoriously egotistical and self-centered in the game, because so many of their spells were beneficial only to elves, and would even reduce stats of friendly non-elven units. So, if an Enchantress had the opinion that such-and-such were people, and such and such were merely animals, it would not therefore follow that they actually really are or are not, but it would follow that she would feel justified and comfortable using her knowledge to destroy them.

Eagles and Air Giants are close friends of the elven worshippers of Air, and are therefore included as people. Stone giants are uncivilized barbarians, no better than orcs (and everyone knows that orcs don't have souls). Fire giants, although cruel and harsh, show some intelligence and occasionally act honorably, so they are probably people. Any messing with the borders between Death and Life that does not result in a full restoration (indistinguishable from never having died) is necromantic and the unfortunate product of such power can never be considered a person, even if such well-meaning but misguided persons as Order wizards are able to produce a good-aligned undead summoning. Unfortunately, Lichs (who should be non-people) were devised in a spell diabolically clever enough that it does not react either as fully living or undead, having elements of both, and therefore cannot be predictably destroyed by this technique.

etc.

OK, now that I've written my own justification, I can accept it.

Great spell, I'll download your update and try it out.

Sorry for the rant.

[Boaster]

Rants and raves are fully acceptable, but I can combat your statement.

The unit coding in LOM for Animals such as Wolves or Lions are WM1, or WM2, or WM3, which stands for Wild Man Creature Tier 3. WMX units are non-trainable units, or just murauder units. Since Wolves, Lions, Sprites, Dryads, and all other units with the code of CR1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and WM1, 2, 3 are considered "SUMMONED CLASS" or "Creature units." This is the basis in which I have determined which characters have souls or not. Lich has a code of WZ2, which stands for Wizard, the 2 means nothing really. The Witch also has a code of WZ2. Lancelot has a code of FT2, which stands for Fighter, and the 2 means nothing.

On the basis of Slay Living being a necromantic spell, that is true. But necromancy does not necessarily mean evil or perverse. Since a Creature does not have a "soul" then its existence is disposable.

Also, how should I credit you for the Pacify spell? The spell function is closely based off of your idea, and I would like to credit you on my website.

[lAncien]

It makes sense to set your spell to work based on the creature type, when Summoned creature is clearly listed as an option.

Clearly, some summoned creatures have no souls, especially the Golems. My only concern was with making the general link that follower = soul, because I was able to think of several examples in the game where that link didn't seem to hold true, based on a literal interpretation of souls and the inconsistency of the game design.

LOMSE is wonderful in many ways, but it tends to have inconsistencies (or sometimes unreasonable consistency, for example, the cavalry units), so I am slow to generalize. I try to find specific things (like the reference to walking the paths in the spell Blink) and base my spell ideas on that, rather than trying to generalize some rule that's not easy.

However, the argument (I made) that it's only the perception of the spell-caster that matters, and we can define that however we want, removes much of the effect of literal arguments. Who cares if X really has a soul or not, if the Enchantress says it doesn't she'll use the spell no matter what.

Pacify:
Have you put in citations for anyone else? I'd say the same way, in general. Mention my screen name, and that will do fine. I don't think any of the other users knows my real name anyway, but you can put that in too, if you like. Just don't put my e-mail.

[Boaster]

Aight. I will put you down as lAncien on the Credits page on my LOMSE website.